Which Spin-off is Closest in "spirit" to TOS?

[Initiate of Gol]

Posted by Neopeius:
firefly

Probably the closest to Gene's original conception of the show ("Wagontrain to the stars")

Since we're doing write-in votes now, I'll note that a few months back in this forum, a number of posters commented that the fairly recent Horatio Hornblower telefilms were the closest thing to Trek in tone and spirit that they'd ever seen (they also mentioned Master and Commander as being Trek-like).

What I'm trying to say, actually, is that I also don't think a show has to be a duplicate in format or formula to evoke the spirit of a predecessor; rather, it must only share a similar essence.

 

[Navaros]

Posted by Jane T. Kirk:

On the other hand, it is also necessary to be true to the format of Star Trek, otherwise it isn't Star Trek. The show has to be bright and optimistic. It can't be placed on a stationary space station. That's why I consider DS9 to be the farthest spinoff from the original in spirit. It's not enough that the show explores "the human condition." The West Wing does that, too, but it's not Star Trek.

why would the Trek format have to be stagnant for over 40 years? Trek is about the betterment of mankind. you don't get better by sticking with a stagnant, 40 year old format! like the vastly obsolete "episodic" format of TOS. no. to get better, you improve and evolve the format. with the much better "serial" format.

by the same token, the "starship + alien of the week" format was also stagnant long before TNG ended it's run.

DS9 saw these things, and decided Trek needed to evolve for the sake of the betterment of mankind. this is what only DS9 was bold enough to do for Trek. DS9 is still Trek, it is just Trek evolved. as per one of the main themes of Trek: evolved humans (evolved from how they are now in present day, that is)

the heart and soul of Trek is indeed exploring the human condition. therefore, the show that does that best, is indeed the show that best follows the spirit of TOS. that show is DS9. :thumbsup:

as for everyone saying that TOS was "optimistic"; i seem to recall many dark themes explored in TOS so in my view that "optimistic" stereotype is a myth

 

[USS Star Trek]

Posted by Navaros:
why would the Trek format have to be stagnant for over 40 years? Trek is about the betterment of mankind. you don't get better by sticking with a stagnant, 40 year old format! like the vastly obsolete "episodic" format of TOS. no. to get better, you improve and evolve the format. with the much better "serial" format.

Nothing is "better" or "worse" with the serial or episodic formats. They're just different.

Personally, I much prefer the "focused" storytelling, the diversity of storylines, the variety of settings and environments, the new characters, the freedom of storytelling, in the episodic format.

by the same token, the "starship + alien of the week" format was also stagnant long before TNG ended it's run.

But you are right, of course, that one have to be careful so that it doesn't turn into endless, formulaic "planet/anomaly/alien of the week" stories. But just as the episodic format can have its weaknesses, then so can the serial one as well.

 

[Jane T. Kirk]

Posted by Navaros:

Posted by Jane T. Kirk:

On the other hand, it is also necessary to be true to the format of Star Trek, otherwise it isn't Star Trek. The show has to be bright and optimistic. It can't be placed on a stationary space station. That's why I consider DS9 to be the farthest spinoff from the original in spirit. It's not enough that the show explores "the human condition." The West Wing does that, too, but it's not Star Trek.

why would the Trek format have to be stagnant for over 40 years? Trek is about the betterment of mankind. you don't get better by sticking with a stagnant, 40 year old format! like the vastly obsolete "episodic" format of TOS. no. to get better, you improve and evolve the format. with the much better "serial" format.

You ask why Star Trek would have to be stagnant for over 40 years? You say that the TOS episodic format is "vastly obsolete?" Fine. Then they should stop milking the "Star Trek" cow for all it's worth and come up with their own damn universe. That's all I'm saying. Why create something that bears no resemblance to the original and then call it Star Trek, except to ride on the coattails of the original's success?

And by the way, how is the serial format so much better? In my opinion, it makes for worse story telling, because it leaves nothing to the imagination. With TOS, almost every little story is left open-ended. You are free to wonder, "What ever happened to Miri and the other kids?" "Did the Mirror Spock ever bring about a revolution?" and so on.

With a serial format, even though the only interesting parts of a story are, for example, Points A, E, and H, you still have to go through Points B, C, D, F, and G, thus getting stuck with abominations like the excruciatingly boring "Dax/Worf wedding arc." Not to mention the number of times DS9 had a decent story going and then dropped the ball in the most infuriating fashion, like when Odo betrayed Kira, and suddenly a few episodes later they are all buddy-buddy again for no apparent reason. Quite clearly, the creative staff wrote themselves into a corner.

Not that TOS is perfect, but to say that the serial format is "improved and "evolved" is ... well, it's quite a stretch, to put it nicely.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Posted by Neopeius:
firefly

Probably the closest to Gene's original conception of the show ("Wagontrain to the stars")

Wasn't that just a way of selling the show to the suits using a name they knew? I like Firefly, but it sure isn't Star Trek or Wagon Train.

MIke

 

[Navaros]

Posted by Jane T. Kirk:

You ask why Star Trek would have to be stagnant for over 40 years? You say that the TOS episodic format is "vastly obsolete?" Fine. Then they should stop milking the "Star Trek" cow for all it's worth and come up with their own damn universe. That's all I'm saying. Why create something that bears no resemblance to the original and then call it Star Trek, except to ride on the coattails of the original's success?

And by the way, how is the serial format so much better? In my opinion, it makes for worse story telling, because it leaves nothing to the imagination. With TOS, almost every little story is left open-ended. You are free to wonder, "What ever happened to Miri and the other kids?" "Did the Mirror Spock ever bring about a revolution?" and so on.

With a serial format, even though the only interesting parts of a story are, for example, Points A, E, and H, you still have to go through Points B, C, D, F, and G, thus getting stuck with abominations like the excruciatingly boring "Dax/Worf wedding arc." Not to mention the number of times DS9 had a decent story going and then dropped the ball in the most infuriating fashion, like when Odo betrayed Kira, and suddenly a few episodes later they are all buddy-buddy again for no apparent reason. Quite clearly, the creative staff wrote themselves into a corner.

Not that TOS is perfect, but to say that the serial format is "improved and "evolved" is ... well, it's quite a stretch, to put it nicely.

ah, but DS9 is very much Trek. it embodies all of the best ideas of Trek, far better than any other series has after TOS. therefore, DS9 is totally deserving to bear the Trek label.

why would one want things to be open-ended on a TV show? TV shows are supposed to show things. that is why they are called shows. to show us. "having things left to the imagination" is better left for mediums like books or that sort of thing, for people who want to use their imagination to fill in blanks rather than be shown outright; which is television's purpose.

as for your Dax point: i cannot argue there. you got me on that one. the Dax wedding arc was indeed excrutiatingly boring. but to be fair to DS9 along with giving you credit where credit is due: Dax is the worst character/actress on the whole show. she never had an interesting line, much less an interesting story. so to pick that as an example is very astute on your part, yet not representative of the overall quality of DS9's serial format.

you got me again on the "Odo cheating on Kira" arc. this was indeed very poor writing.

however despite your valid points on those two things, you can not neglect the best things the serial format gave to DS9. like Odo gradually falling in love with Kira. you can literally see this reflected in the acting by Auberjonois for years before Odo and Kira finally get together. thus the payoff to the viewer who cares about these characters is grand.

compare that to TOS, where Kirk meets a woman for the first time, falls in love with her 5 minutes later, fornicates with her 15 minutes after that, then she dies in another 15 minutes. and then next week it happens all over again with a new woman. thus you have a typical TOS love story.

from comparisons like this we see how the episodic format is unable to compete with the serial format

 

[Jane T. Kirk]

Posted by Navaros:

compare that to TOS, where Kirk meets a woman for the first time, falls in love with her 5 minutes later, fornicates with her 15 minutes after that, then she dies in another 15 minutes. and then next week it happens all over again with a new woman. thus you have a typical TOS love story.

from comparisons like this we see how the episodic format is unable to compete with the serial format

I suppose if you watch science fiction to see protracted love stories, then the episodic format is undoubtedly unable to compete.

why would one want things to be open-ended on a TV show? TV shows are supposed to show things. that is why they are called shows. to show us. "having things left to the imagination" is better left for mediums like books or that sort of thing, for people who want to use their imagination to fill in blanks rather than be shown outright; which is television's purpose.

The "show" in "TV show" applies strictly to the visual, not to the content. I see no reason why both books and TV cannot leave things to the imagination.

I really don't understand the DS9 fans who point out all the things they think that the show does differently and vastly better than Star Trek, but still want to insist that the spinoff is so close to the spirit of the original. Where, exactly, is the resemblance? Once again, it's not enough to say things like "it explores the human condition" or "the writing is good" or "the characters are compelling." Lots of TV shows do the same thing, and they are not Star Trek. "M*A*S*H," "Barney Miller," "The West Wing," "All in the Family." The list goes on. And on.

 

[Rhody the Ram]

TNG is a great continuation of the spirit of TOS. Episodes like:
-The Ensigns of Command
-Darmok
-Justice
-The Big Goodbye
-When the Bough Breaks
-Symbiosis
-Where Silence Has Lease
-The Measure of a Man
-The Survivors
-Who Watches the Watchers?
-The Defector
-and more (I'm tired of looking through the episode lists. )
...could all have been TOS episodes, I think, because they each address a social issue and include a necessary tension. That's why I love TNG!

 

[USS Star Trek]

Posted by Navaros:

Posted by Jane T. Kirk:

You ask why Star Trek would have to be stagnant for over 40 years? You say that the TOS episodic format is "vastly obsolete?" Fine. Then they should stop milking the "Star Trek" cow for all it's worth and come up with their own damn universe. That's all I'm saying. Why create something that bears no resemblance to the original and then call it Star Trek, except to ride on the coattails of the original's success?

And by the way, how is the serial format so much better? In my opinion, it makes for worse story telling, because it leaves nothing to the imagination. With TOS, almost every little story is left open-ended. You are free to wonder, "What ever happened to Miri and the other kids?" "Did the Mirror Spock ever bring about a revolution?" and so on.

With a serial format, even though the only interesting parts of a story are, for example, Points A, E, and H, you still have to go through Points B, C, D, F, and G, thus getting stuck with abominations like the excruciatingly boring "Dax/Worf wedding arc." Not to mention the number of times DS9 had a decent story going and then dropped the ball in the most infuriating fashion, like when Odo betrayed Kira, and suddenly a few episodes later they are all buddy-buddy again for no apparent reason. Quite clearly, the creative staff wrote themselves into a corner.

Not that TOS is perfect, but to say that the serial format is "improved and "evolved" is ... well, it's quite a stretch, to put it nicely.

ah, but DS9 is very much Trek. it embodies all of the best ideas of Trek, far better than any other series has after TOS. therefore, DS9 is totally deserving to bear the Trek label.

why would one want things to be open-ended on a TV show? TV shows are supposed to show things. that is why they are called shows. to show us. "having things left to the imagination" is better left for mediums like books or that sort of thing, for people who want to use their imagination to fill in blanks rather than be shown outright; which is television's purpose.

Tv shows - Tv shows - get it, punny...

But - that is also exactly TVs point - to show the interesting things, to show and don't tell, to show all the fun, interesting, exciting stuff, and don't tell all the endless, never-to-the-point material, in-between...

I guess some people prefer to have all the facts served on a silver plate, but others just like to get to the friggin point already!

To "leave things to the imagination" and have things open-ended, is NOT the same thing as telling stories that are incomprehensable and hard to get. Au contraire: An "episodic episode" is easier to understand by occasional viewers than serial ones. It's also stronger on its own than the serial one.

No, what "leave things to the imagination" and have things open-ended means, is to not over-indulge in things that are only interesting for so long. And it also means to not retread tired old territory time and again.

however despite your valid points on those two things, you can not neglect the best things the serial format gave to DS9. like Odo gradually falling in love with Kira. you can literally see this reflected in the acting by Auberjonois for years before Odo and Kira finally get together. thus the payoff to the viewer who cares about these characters is grand.

I admit that the serial format has its strong sides too, that's why I said that none of them are superior to the other, they're just different, is all.

compare that to TOS, where Kirk meets a woman for the first time, falls in love with her 5 minutes later, fornicates with her 15 minutes after that, then she dies in another 15 minutes. and then next week it happens all over again with a new woman. thus you have a typical TOS love story.

You can perfectly well tell a love story in 50 minutes, I can't really see why two seasons should be necessary.

from comparisons like this we see how the episodic format is unable to compete with the serial format

in certain areas, but by no means in all.

 

[IDIC]

TNG was closest. It continued to explore humanity, many of the character dynamics were similar, same ship name, etc...


I disagree completely that DS9 was in the same spirit as TOS. DS9 started out completely opposite. It was a station based thing where exploration was not about going out to find things, it was about things coming to you. Then you had the entire war. I think Roddenberry would be turning over in his grave over DS9.

My opinion is that the poll results are more a reflection of people answering what their favorite show was and not actually saying which was in the same "spirit" of TOS.

The comments about TNG being sterile seem rather silly considering that TOS was the same way. You had these bright white and grey walls. Everyone in nice clean uniforms walking around being close to perfect.

 

[Joanna McCoy-Kirk]

Posted by Rhody the Ram:
TNG is a great continuation of the spirit of TOS. Episodes like:
-The Ensigns of Command
-Darmok
-Justice
-The Big Goodbye
-When the Bough Breaks
-Symbiosis
-Where Silence Has Lease
-The Measure of a Man
-The Survivors
-Who Watches the Watchers?
-The Defector
!

My goodness, I would love love to see "Darmok" as a TOS episode. Imagine Kirk against the metaphor alien, trading overwrought lines--when all else fails, Kirk lapses into "the girl with kaleidoscope EYES!!!!! "

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Posted by Number6:

Posted by JonnyQuest037:

Posted by Number6:
^^ Some might say that ENT is like eating a steak in front of a vegatarian.

I would say that that it was usually more akin to trying to pass tofu off as filet mignon.

Actually I say that because that what Archer and Trip do infront of T'Pol on the very first episode.

Ah. I wasn't catching the reference. I haven't watched "Broken Bow" since it first aired in 2001.

And after thinking about it a bit more, I'd like to change my answer. Babylon 5 had more of a TOS feel to me than a lot of Trek in 1990s.

 

[mswood]

Since the question is concerns the "spirit" of the show. Lets look a the different shows.

TNG, while on basically the same mission lacked the emotional feel of the 60's show. And while it is hte most successful of modern Treks and the only one to feature the work of Roddenberry it seems far removed from the spirit of the classic.

DS9 doesn't share the mission or the thrust of the classic show, but it does embrace the exploring of the human condition.

VOY, seems actually fairly close in both spirit of adventure and spirit of exploration, but the journey home aspect really bothers me.

ENT, definetly shares the same outlook on flawed humans and culture and the show (especially in the first season) managed better then any of hte treks to shows the crews wonder in exploration. So while the show has its faults, personally I find it closest to TOS in spirit.

 

[Ronald Held]

Some early shows of TNG tried, but ENT was the closest.

 

[Chess Piece Face]

Deep Space Nine is the closest in spirit. It is an exploration of the human condition. It has characters you care about that change and grow and suffer and love together more than any of the other shows.

TNG had the spirit of TOS in the first 2 seasons. Then it became its own sort of PC, late 80's space show. A good show, but not closest in spirit.

VOY might as well have been a Xena level show. Lip service to the characters and no lasting consequences. They did whatever plot dictated no matter what it meant for the characters. I take it back, Xena was more consistent than this show.

ENT might as well have been a Knight Rider or Dukes of Hazzard level show. Formulaic fluff for kids and idiots. Actually those shows had more ryhme and reason to them. At least you could pretty much count on Michael Knight or the Duke boys doing the same things or having the same reactions to any given situation. You can't say that about Captain Archer.

 

[Doctor Phlox]

I think Voyager is the closest. You had a group of explorers in a new situation every single episode with no consequences following them from their previous mission.

 

[Blade Runner]

I agree and also went with Voyager.

 

[3D Master]

Posted by canadaboy_32:
I don't see how there can be so many votes for DS9. They had a damn war, they didn't solve their problems peacefully. I went with ENT, but I would've gone with TNG or VOY as well for the exploration.

TOS: Errand of Mercy:

Kirk (paraphrasing): "You don't have the right to stop us from fighting this war! If we want to fight this war, and kill billions of people, lots of them innocent, then that's our damn right. Now quit your tricks, and let us start the killing!"

Sorry, but TOS wasn't the nice sweet, oooh, show people make it out to be. DS9 is simply what would have happened in this episode if there weren't a bunch of god-like beings shutting down all their ships and demanding they negotiate peace right this instant or suffer the consequences.

In that respect TOS and DS9 have the same 'feel' to the universe around them. In TNG the Federation left their own people to the enemy in order to get a peace agreement; pretty much peace no matter the price. The 23rd century Federation (TOS Federation) NEVER would have done that. If the Cardassians had demanded territroies of them, and kick people already living there off it; they would given the Cardassians the middle finger. They may have gotten the same solution: let the people live in the DMZ without weapons, but the moment TOS Federation found out the Cardassians were giving their people weapons to go kill Federation citizens; they wouldn't have branded the Federation side trying to defend themselves terrorists, no, they would have told the Cardassians very simply: "Quit with the weapons placing right this instant, we'll get our side to hold off attacking; you do not - get ready to get your asses kicked."

The difference between TNG; the people are not only depicted as always good and right and sweet, they're even convinced of it themselves to a point of arrogance; an arrogance Sisko perfectly describes thusly: "You know what the problem is with living in paradise? It's easy to be saints in paradise! But the people out there aren't living in paradise, and they aren't saints; they're just people trying to make a living and survive!"

Of course, their arrogance got slammed in their butts when the Dominion came and they got their noses pressed on the facts; to such an extent they were forced to implent 23rd century ways of thinking: start the war first, make a pre-emptive strike, FIGHT!

And THIS is why DS9 is so close to TOS. TOS is a gritty deadly universe, where things can go wrong, and wars are being fought - unless some god-like beings get pissed off and intervene - where the people have grown better than us 20th century in that they attempt to better themselves, and attempt to find a way to choose not to kill today, but we'll see about tomorrow, where I might feel the need to start a war. In that DS9 and TOS felt the same, so very close, the same universe.

 

[Nebusj]

Posted by 3D Master:
In TNG the Federation left their own people to the enemy in order to get a peace agreement; pretty much peace no matter the price. The 23rd century Federation (TOS Federation) NEVER would have done that. If the Cardassians had demanded territroies of them, and kick people already living there off it; they would given the Cardassians the middle finger.

Yeah, that silly 24th Century Federation, agreeing to split disputed territories with another power just because that power had fought them for years to a frustrating standstill, neither side able to make any significant progress. You'd think they'd know the only true way to peace is to conquer everybody who even looks sideways at every spit of land any Federation citizen has ever thought of.

 

[Tralah]

Posted by DorkBoy [TM]:

For me though, Star Trek never was about spaceships and exploration, or at least not "just" about those. It was about using science fiction "trappings" to explore interesting social issues and talk about things that are hard to talk about otherwise.

You summed up my feelings exactly DorkBoy and in better words than I probably would have managed.