Which Spin-off is Closest in "spirit" to TOS?

[number6]

That link includes several specualtions about the Romulan war in fact. The clamoring for the Earth-Romulan war had been going on through the run of ENT.

Just because the Dominion is mentioned in season two, doesn't mean that they intended there to be a season long war arc. I know you'd like to believe that. DS9 was not just about war. I agree that GR may not have approved of DS9 but it has nothing to do with war. It has to do with his characters being in conflict with one another. Even if your theory about the Dominion war starting in season two was remotely possible, it was never part of the proposal or series bible that Berman and Piller presented to Paramount or Gene.

 

[DWF]

Posted by Number6:
That link includes several specualtions about the Romulan war in fact. The clamoring for the Earth-Romulan war had been going on through the run of ENT.

Just because the Dominion is mentioned in season two, doesn't mean that they intended there to be a season long war arc. I know you'd like to believe that. DS9 was not just about war. I agree that GR may not have approved of DS9 but it has nothing to do with war. It has to do with his characters being in conflict with one another. Even if your theory about the Dominion war starting in season two was remotely possible, it was never part of the proposal or series bible that Berman and Piller presented to Paramount or Gene.

I said that's when the arc started and I said that the war started at the end of the fifth season, Pillar left after the second season so many things were changed, I doubt if the Defiant was apart of that series bible either.

 

[number6]

So your assertion that GR wouldn't have approved of DS9 because it was a war show has no merit whatsoever.

We have just both proved that conclusively.

 

[DWF]

Posted by Number6:
So your assertion that GR wouldn't have approved of DS9 because it was a war show has no merit whatsoever.

We have just both proved that conclusively.

Where did I say that? I said that Star Trek is not about fighting wars, but preventing or avoiding and I never said that DS9 was a war show. The fact is that DS9 really wasn't about exploration or finding new life forms and I doubt if that would've appealed to him either. And there was no conflict bewteen Starfleet personal on DS9 just as there wasn't on TNG, they added characters outside of the Federation for the conflict.

 

[ancient]

Enterprise was Also a war show in season 3. A 4th of it's run.

TNG: Klingon civil war

TUC: Klingon cold war

NEM: Romulan/Remen/Fed war

meh. War is all over trek, which is fine, it's a relevent social issue.

 

[number6]

Posted by DWF:

Posted by Number6:
So your assertion that GR wouldn't have approved of DS9 because it was a war show has no merit whatsoever.

We have just both proved that conclusively.

Where did I say that? I said that Star Trek is not about fighting wars, but preventing or avoiding and I never said that DS9 was a war show. The fact is that DS9 really wasn't about exploration or finding new life forms and I doubt if that would've appealed to him either. And there was no conflict bewteen Starfleet personal on DS9 just as there wasn't on TNG, they added characters outside of the Federation for the conflict.

You've just changed your argument. And now your speaking to the points I made a half an hour ago.


To wit:

Posted by Number6:

Posted by DWF:

Posted by Number6:

Posted by DWF:
TNG, I get the feeling that Gene Rodenberry might not have liked DS9 too much, I think the war would've put him off of the series.

The war didn't happen until much later in the series. He certainly wouldn't have approved of the conflict between the characters. Ironically that conflict between Spock, Bones and Kirk drove TOS and is echoed very strongly in DS9.

It hardly matters when the war took place, Star Trek was never about fighting wars, it certainly wasn't while he was in charge.

So I guess episodes like A Taste of Armageddon, Aprivate Little War, and Balance of Terror happened while his back was turned, and fans didn't praise the Dominion war arc in droves and aren't now clamoring to see the Romulan war???

DS9 wasn't about fighting wars, either. They did a war arc for a season and a half, but it wasn't the focus of the series.

 

[DWF]

Posted by Number6:

Posted by DWF:

Posted by Number6:
So your assertion that GR wouldn't have approved of DS9 because it was a war show has no merit whatsoever.

We have just both proved that conclusively.

Where did I say that? I said that Star Trek is not about fighting wars, but preventing or avoiding and I never said that DS9 was a war show. The fact is that DS9 really wasn't about exploration or finding new life forms and I doubt if that would've appealed to him either. And there was no conflict bewteen Starfleet personal on DS9 just as there wasn't on TNG, they added characters outside of the Federation for the conflict.

You've just changed your argument. And now your speaking to the points I made a half an hour ago.

I just repeated what I had already stated, I didn't reverse anything.

 

[DWF]

Posted by ancient:
Enterprise was Also a war show in season 3. A 4th of it's run.

TNG: Klingon civil war

TUC: Klingon cold war

NEM: Romulan/Remen/Fed war

meh. War is all over trek, which is fine, it's a relevent social issue.

Gene didn't like TUC either and I doubt if he would've liked Enterprise either. And if I remember right it was the crew of the E-D who ended the Klingon civil war, not fought in it.

 

[ancient]

Posted by DWF:

Posted by ancient:
Enterprise was Also a war show in season 3. A 4th of it's run.

TNG: Klingon civil war

TUC: Klingon cold war

NEM: Romulan/Remen/Fed war

meh. War is all over trek, which is fine, it's a relevent social issue.

Gene didn't like TUC either and I doubt if he would've liked Enterprise either. And if I remember right it was the crew of the E-D who ended the Klingon civil war, not fought in it.

Yes, that's all true. Gene was an idealist, no doubt about it.

 

[number6]

Posted by DWF:

Posted by ancient:
Enterprise was Also a war show in season 3. A 4th of it's run.

TNG: Klingon civil war

TUC: Klingon cold war

NEM: Romulan/Remen/Fed war

meh. War is all over trek, which is fine, it's a relevent social issue.

Gene didn't like TUC either and I doubt if he would've liked Enterprise either. And if I remember right it was the crew of the E-D who ended the Klingon civil war, not fought in it.

How would you know if GR would have liked or not liked ENT???

GR didn't like the films because he had no say in it. He objected strongly to his characters having flaws at this point. It is also important to note that at this point in time he was speaking only through his attourney who himself was stark raving mad. GR didn't have his marbles either at this point.

Yeah, you can say that GR wouldn't like this or that but based on what??

 

[ancient]

Posted by Number6:

How would you know if GR would have liked or not liked ENT???

GR didn't like the films because he had no say in it. He objected strongly to his characters having flaws at this point. It is also important to note that at this point in time he was speaking only through his attourney who himself was stark raving mad. GR didn't have his marbles either at this point.

Yeah, you can say that GR wouldn't like this or that but based on what??

Gene liked the good guys to be perfect.
ENT:
-Vulcans are split/lie/not fully logical/etc.
-Humans and vulcans seem not to like one another in 1st season, etc.
-Temporal war. People from the far future are even worse.
-All of season 3 was about war, earth getting blown, etc.
-Human Characters are imperfect.
-Terra Prime.

Based on how idealist he became I'd say anything other than TNG isn't up to Gene's helpless idealism (including TOS and TAS)

Once again MEH to it all.

 

[DWF]

Posted by Number6:

How would you know if GR would have liked or not liked ENT???

GR didn't like the films because he had no say in it. He objected strongly to his characters having flaws at this point. It is also important to note that at this point in time he was speaking only through his attourney who himself was stark raving mad. GR didn't have his marbles either at this point.

Yeah, you can say that GR wouldn't like this or that but based on what??

Well his comments on TUC are in print as are the statements of Majel and there's at least three books written about his life, including his biography. And no he didn't hate all of the movies and there no more proof of him being "stark raving mad" than there's proof his not liking the other spin offs, but clearly the spinoffs weren't his version of Star Trek, they were Rick Berman and Co.

 

[number6]

Aren't you glad you got the last word?? Check your facts, though.

...at least Ancient answered my question.

 

[DWF]

Posted by Number6:
Aren't you glad you got the last word?? Check your facts, though.

What "facts" do you have his medical records? And more importantly why does that matter? Do you think they'd allow him to oversee the spinoffs and if he hated the movies because of his lack of involvement, don't you think he'd hate the spinoffs for the same reason?

 

[number6]

Posted by DWF:

Posted by Number6:
Aren't you glad you got the last word?? Check your facts, though.

What "facts" do you have his medical records? And more importantly why does that matter? Do you think they'd allow him to oversee the spinoffs and if he hated the movies because of his lack of involvement, don't you think he'd hate the spinoffs for the same reason?

Considering that he never lived to see any of his spinoffs and he had the movie franchise taken away from him.. Yeah, I'd say that that would make a huge difference about how he'd view things!! As far as his health. Look at any interview and read any book about Gene's final years. There were bitter battles with his lawyer and the people who worked on TNG which ended his friendships with nearly everyone who had worked with him on TOS with the possible exception of Bob Justman. He often mused that the fans would regard any spinoffs as better than anything he'd ever done and hoped that there would always be a Star Trek on television. Bearing that in mind I think whether he's approve or not is moot. This thread isn't about that anyway.

 

[DWF]

Posted by Number6:

Considering that he never lived to see any of his spinoffs and he had the movie franchise taken away from him.. Yeah, I'd say that that would make a huge difference about how he'd view things!! As far as his health. Look at any interview and read any book about Gene's final years. There were bitter battles with his lawyer and the people who worked on TNG which ended his friendships with nearly everyone who had worked with him on TOS with the possible exception of Bob Justman. He often mused that the fans would regard any spinoffs as better than anything he'd ever done and hoped that there would always be a Star Trek on television. Bearing that in mind I think whether he's approve or not is moot. This thread isn't about that anyway.

Then why did you fly off the handle when said that? He was the spirit of Star Trek whether you approve of his actions or not and TOS was just much his baby as TNG.

 

[number6]

Posted by DWF:

Posted by Number6:

Considering that he never lived to see any of his spinoffs and he had the movie franchise taken away from him.. Yeah, I'd say that that would make a huge difference about how he'd view things!! As far as his health. Look at any interview and read any book about Gene's final years. There were bitter battles with his lawyer and the people who worked on TNG which ended his friendships with nearly everyone who had worked with him on TOS with the possible exception of Bob Justman. He often mused that the fans would regard any spinoffs as better than anything he'd ever done and hoped that there would always be a Star Trek on television. Bearing that in mind I think whether he's approve or not is moot. This thread isn't about that anyway.

Then why did you fly off the handle when said that? He was the spirit of Star Trek whether you approve of his actions or not and TOS was just much his baby as TNG.

No one's flying off the handle. I never suggested that GR wasn't the spirit of Star Trek, nor that I approve ir disapprove of his actions. TOS was GR's baby and so was TNG to an extent. No one is disputing that either. That's not what this thread is about. Try reading the subject line next time.

 

[DWF]

Posted by Number6:
No one's flying off the handle. I never suggested that GR wasn't the spirit of Star Trek, nor that I approve ir disapprove of his actions. TOS was GR's baby and so was TNG to an extent. No one is disputing that either. That's not what this thread is about. Try reading the subject line next time.

Try reading what I posted, I said TNG was the closest and you just agreed with me, Gene was the spirit of Star Trek TOS and TNG so by default TNG is the closest to the spirit of TOS.

 

[number6]

I don't agree about TNG being closest to TOS.

In fact GR's attitude about Star Trek is pretty different between the two series.

 

[ancient]

Posted by Number6:
I don't agree about TNG being closest to TOS.

In fact GR's attitude about Star Trek is pretty different between the two series.

Right on, Gene made TNG basically to fix everything he didn't like about TOS. Where as DS9, Voy, and Ent reverted to a more TOS theme.