Where is the autism talk at?

[Autistoid]

Genetic enhancement is forbidden in the Federation, not the correction of inherited genetic defects.

Yes but than you go down the rabbit hole of what is a defect. Is being 5 foot 6 a defect.

It greatly decreases your chance for an athletic career.

Does balding now get removed, it makes one career options somewhat more limited.

How about facial features etc.

At some point you have to draw the line.

 

[JWPlatt]

Advocate question of the day:

Genetic democracy: Why not let parents decide?

 

[Ithekro]

Well, Geordi was clearly still blind from birth. Picard still became bald. Riker still grew a beard.

The places were I see a little non-illegal genetic work being done is on fetus of mixed species parents so that the child can be born. The work being done on Dax for example so she could have a child with Worf. I seem to recall B'elanna also wanting to do alterations on her daughter. Some to prevent fatal defects, but also wanting to remove the Klingon parts of her, which she gave up on at some point.

 

[Autistoid]

Advocate question of the day:

Genetic democracy: Why not let parents decide?

Because a decade later every kid would be 6 foot 4 blue blond headed sprinters.

China's gendercide is what happens when you let parents decide.

 

[Autistoid]

I know some people diagnosed with (mild) Asperger's that absolutely wouldn't want to be 'cured', even if such a thing existed, since they consider autism to be integral to their identity ("I wouldn't be me anymore!") -if I've understood them correctly, that is.

Therefore, assuming that at least some people in the 24th century would have the same attitude, and assuming that no one would be forced to undergo such a procedure in that utopian future, I could imagine that some people would still fall within the spectrum by that time.

I think it's also important to keep in mind there is no cure in sight outside of prenatal abortions.

Which if you advocate puts you on the list of people who wish they had never been born.

It's hard to appreciate how that feels. I was born this way if I wasn't it'd hard to imagine how I'd be remotely similar to who i am now as an actual person.

Keeping in mind outside of linguistic struggles I'm relatively not disabled.

 

[Jedi_Master]

It would be relatively easy for the Federation to legislate what was and what isn't legal genetic engineering, as well as establish limits on "conscience based" exemptions from lifesaving genetic engineering. Geordi's blindness was incurable, not voluntary.

 

[Sector 7]

...all some of them really need is social feedback training to understand a little better exactly how their actions are perceived.

...and from the other end, an enlightened understanding of how to perceive different people differently rather than forcing conformity.

You missed that part.

For example, this would be one of those traits to better understand of those on the spectrum:

I apologize to some degree if I come across stronger than I actually intended.

It's not intentional. It's not meant to be confrontational. It's just communication.

Thanks appreciate the understanding.


But yes it's not simply social skills.

What people that don't understand autism is that it's not being awkward that makes you autistic.

It's mindblindness, or the inability to relate to other peoples reasoning. It's a neurological function not a social norm or intellectual reasoning.

So, all the Republican presidential candidates are autistic?

.... aright I'll do it if you send me your credentials, a list of your patiences etc.

You're more than welcome to view my Linkedin profile here. I'm afraid I can't send you any patient information, as that's prohibited by law.

--Sran

.... aright I'll do it if you send me your credentials, a list of your patiences etc.

You're more than welcome to view my Linkedin profile here. I'm afraid I can't send you any patient information, as that's prohibited by law.

--Sran

All I get is that your a doctor?

Where the patient loads that are primarily autistic?

Where is the part where your showing some reference to actual autistic therapies etc?

FIRST: TrekBBS rule is address the post NOT the poster. Remembering that will help your conversations be civil. It will also be easier for people to respect your OPINION.

Some things I saw while reading this thread:
- Many characters in Star Trek have some autistic traits. They also have many other traits. As a gay man, I see the characters from my own point of view. As a political moderate, I see the characters and their behavior from my own POV. You see them from your own POV as an autistic person. However, others have just as valid a viewpoint as yours, Autistoid. It doesn't make them wrong and you right. I have known people on this board who disagree with me and most of my views, but we get along well without being mean or name calling... or demanding their credentials.

Sran holds quite an impressive set of credentials. I read the profile he willingly gave us. Thank you, Sran, for sharing them with us.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

I'm sorry, Autistoid, but I don't see autism (or Asperger's) in any of these characters, especially Worf or Spock.

As a Aspie myself, I'd like to hope that this condition is dealt with better by the 23rd and 24th centuries, and that it's either eliminated or at lest lessened. I've suffered enough of this condition in life (being a failure in school due to no early diagnosis and treatment, having behavioral difficulties that led to my being dropped out of the school system, being medicated at 16 and 17 on meds that made me drowsy if I didn't take the medication right, ending up on social assistance at 17 [and still being on it now in my mid-40's]) to not want it in me or anybody else; as one blogger put it, a life form that can't adjust to change is doomed, and that's what most autistics are like (at least, that's how she saw it.) There's nothing in life good about being such a way that you end up knowing all there is to know about subways so that you end up impersonating a NYCTA employee, as has happened in the life of this African-American man. I'd hope that the Federation and the United Earth Republic would not have people go through the difficulty of autism (even Asperger's) by at least letting genetic engineering be used to correct it.

 

[Autistoid]

I'm sorry, Autistoid, but I don't see autism (or Asperger's) in any of these characters, especially Worf or Spock.

As a Aspie myself, I'd like to hope that this condition is dealt with better by the 23rd and 24th centuries, and that it's either eliminated or at lest lessened. I've suffered enough of this condition in life (being a failure in school due to no early diagnosis and treatment, having behavioral difficulties that led to my being dropped out of the school system, being medicated at 16 and 17 on meds that made me drowsy if I didn't take the medication right, ending up on social assistance at 17 [and still being on it now in my mid-40's]) to not want it in me or anybody else; as one blogger put it, a life form that can't adjust to change is doomed, and that's what most autistics are like (at least, that's how she saw it.

Don't for a second think I don't appreciate your troubles.

Or many of the troubles that are faced by people on the spectrum.

I really believe there is a large degree of hope for people on the spectrum, and I think without question things are getting better and better day by day.

I have more than a few friends that can't work, that are on powerful antidepressants(even when everything about their situation says these are the worst possible things for them)

I also know people like myself who have faced fundamental issues with schooling and education, myself, girlfriend, brother etc all included in that.

However things appear to be clearly getting better fast.


Ironically if vulcan beliefs are in reality an exstension of greek stoic beliefs, there is another direct connection to stoicism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

Cognitive behavioral therapy is an exstension of stoic beliefs and I think it's an extremely useful tool for those on the spectrum.

People often focus on it's usefulness with depression which of course can help just about anybody.

However I think it has far more valuable benefits to those on the spectrum.

When you factor in issues like sensory intergration( your brain going haywire when trying to balance it's 5 senses)

Extreme anxiety levels.

Inability to collect objective social information on those around you, due to empathy issues. (i.e. trying to interact with people you don't understand requires some form of stradegy)

Or difficulties relating to executive function.(we struggle when asked to switch tasks)

It's one of my beliefs that the primary issue facing people on the spectrum is that were not programmed.

Your average person has a set of instincts and social behaviors that makes them ideal for learning by exposure.

People on the spectrum however must learn things intelletually including how to regulate their emotions.

However no one goes to grade school to get taught how to think and reflect on their emotions, how to be objective in situations etc. It's a strange way of thinking to the average person but for someone on the spectrum it's crucial.

We have to deal with a great deal of internal struggle, however I think there is a great deal of hope.

Objectively the intellectual capacity is there.

Most people on the spectrum, that have their issues caused by more directly autism, appear to have the same amount of brain power as anyone else.

This appears to be a rather consistant finding.

Of course the ability to channel this brain power seems to be severly lacking.

Despite the objective that the potential is there, people seem to put up alot of mental barriers, that are based on unfortunate circumstance rather than actual research.


Don't get me wrong I don't think all problems can be solved, and I don't think any of this will happen all in one decade, however the potential seems to be rather clear.


I look at vulcans as being a prime examples of what can happen when a different style of thinking is embraced..

 

[T'Girl]

So, all the Republican presidential candidates are autistic?

No, just all the Democratic ones.

TrekBBS rule is address the post NOT the poster.

But how does that work when a poster make frequent references to themselves, using themselves as an example in the discussion?

 

[JWPlatt]

TrekBBS rule is address the post NOT the poster.

But how does that work when a poster make frequent references to themselves, using themselves as an example in the discussion?

Here is an excellent post from T'Bonz, giving real examples instead of theoretical demands of "don't be bad."
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=11171171&postcount=7

 

[hux]

Genetic enhancement is forbidden in the Federation, not the correction of inherited genetic defects.

Who determines what a defect is?

I bet it's the people who live on the beaches.

What about that DS9 episode with Melora who grew up on a planet with low gravity. As a consequence, she is disabled by the Earth based levels of gravity on the space station (levels that are conveniently suitable for countless other species.....hmmm).

Anyway, though not a defect by the standards of her native society, a defect by the standards of the society she has chosen to live in. So would she qualify for genetic correction under those circumstances (should such a procedure be available) or would that technically be viewed as an enhancement?

 

[Autistoid]

Genetic enhancement is forbidden in the Federation, not the correction of inherited genetic defects.

Who determines what a defect is?

I bet it's the people who live on the beaches.

What about that DS9 episode with Melora who grew up on a planet with low gravity. As a consequence, she is disabled by the Earth based levels of gravity on the space station (levels that are conveniently suitable for countless other species.....hmmm).

Anyway, though not a defect by the standards of her native society, a defect by the standards of the society she has chosen to live in. So would she qualify for genetic correction under those circumstances (should such a procedure be available) or would that technically be viewed as an enhancement?

Solid point.


Honestly this is the crime that Star Trek is so guilty of.

Especially in the later series.

Culture is how an organism adapts through an environment through collaborative means.

By not respecting the unique environmental concerns of a given species, changing another culture can have dramatic effects.

This has parallels in real world history.

The federation is the imperial power, who considers it's the white mans burden to fix the savage nations of the galaxy.

Vulcans should embrace emotion, who cares that they have a different neurology.

Klingons should be democratic, who cares if there brains are wired for action and excitement.

etc etc etc

 

[T'Girl]

Genetic enhancement is forbidden in the Federation, not the correction of inherited genetic defects.

We don't know that such a prohibition is a Federation one, instead it could be something that Earth applies to Humans, but other species don't have a similar prohibition. The Federation backs the prohibition on Human genetic alterations, but doesn't extend it to other Federation Members.

What about that DS9 episode with Melora ...

My take of that episode is that Melora didn't have a genetic defect, she just had weak bones and shitty muscle tone. Being in DS9's gravity, regardless of the wheel chair, must have done awful things to her blood pressure.

Earth based levels of gravity on the space station (levels that are conveniently suitable for countless other species.....hmmm).

Bajor's gravity (maintained on DS9) might be unusually light. It is a Bajorian station after all, Starfleet only administers it.

 

[hux]

My take of that episode is that Melora didn't have a genetic defect, she just had weak bones and shitty muscle tone. Being in DS9's gravity, regardless of the wheel chair, must have done awful things to her blood pressure.

But she's still disabled by her environment. Should a genetic procedure rectify that, is it a "correction" or an "enhancement?" What if she has a child with a human and the child inherits her genetic traits leading to disability in that (human) environment. Do you correct the genetic problem to remove the disabling factor? (even though there would be no problem for the child should it choose to live on Elasia).

The question is about who and how you determine what is a defect or an enhancement.

Bajor's gravity (maintained on DS9) might be unusually light. It is a Bajorian station after all, Starfleet only administers it.

They're all in the same ball park though aren't they. Seems somewhat unlikely but for the sake of entertainment, it's understandable. The introduction of Melora as a character was another reason to applaud DS9.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Well, Geordi was clearly still blind from birth. Picard still became bald. Riker still grew a beard.

The places were I see a little non-illegal genetic work being done is on fetus of mixed species parents so that the child can be born. The work being done on Dax for example so she could have a child with Worf. I seem to recall B'elanna also wanting to do alterations on her daughter. Some to prevent fatal defects, but also wanting to remove the Klingon parts of her, which she gave up on at some point.

Genetic enhancement is forbidden in the Federation, not the correction of inherited genetic defects.

Yes but than you go down the rabbit hole of what is a defect. Is being 5 foot 6 a defect.

It greatly decreases your chance for an athletic career.

Does balding now get removed, it makes one career options somewhat more limited.

How about facial features etc.

At some point you have to draw the line.

We don't know that such a prohibition is a Federation one, instead it could be something that Earth applies to Humans, but other species don't have a similar prohibition. The Federation backs the prohibition on Human genetic alterations, but doesn't extend it to other Federation Members.

Remember that TNG episode where they had a research facility where they were genetically engineering super children?

It wasn't for correction, it was a pure unadulterated attempt to create perfect super children. Telepathy, telekinesis, immunity, the works.

That came out of nowhere. Unless it was a minor Trek hiccup, it was implying that the Fed was backing eugenics research.

Then again, it was an early TNG episode, so it could have been a minor mix up.

And then Geordi got those bionic implants for his eyes which made him see even better than before. It was electronic rather than genetic, but it was still an enhancement.

The funny thing is that the show started off with the idea that being blind like Geordi, was not an issue and was not to be seen as a disability.

As the show progresses, however, we see more and more people, aliens and whoever, see his blindness or Visor as a defect, to the point of implying he never should have been born.

Eventually he gets the upgraded super eyes, but who can blame him.

 

[Starborn Dragon]

Eugenics research is not an evil thing. Like anything it can be misused and corrupted by power mad super greedy people.

But one aspect of Star Trek I've always found distasteful is the cultural centricism of it.

If you're human you must be loyal to earth and be human.

If you're Klingon, even if one eight Klingon, then you must be Klingon.

so on and so forth.

I've never understo9od centricism. It seems somewhat irrational to me.

Especially if you believe in individuality and freedom and liberty.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Worf and Torres were loyal to the Federation. ( mostly)

K'Ehleyr was a Federation Ambassador.

Sela, who was half human was loyal to the Romulans

Shiznon was loyal to the Remans.

So there are examples of characters who's loyalty was to a nation rather than their genetics

 

[fireproof78]

Eugenics research is not an evil thing. Like anything it can be misused and corrupted by power mad super greedy people.

But one aspect of Star Trek I've always found distasteful is the cultural centricism of it.

If you're human you must be loyal to earth and be human.

If you're Klingon, even if one eight Klingon, then you must be Klingon.

so on and so forth.

I've never understo9od centricism. It seems somewhat irrational to me.

Especially if you believe in individuality and freedom and liberty.

I am a firm believer in freedom and liberty.

I am also terrified by what humans can do with it.

Yes, they are in conflict, but that doesn't make it any less scary and any less unpredictable.

 

[Autistoid]

Eugenics research is not an evil thing. Like anything it can be misused and corrupted by power mad super greedy people.

Meh I think it's pandora's box.

It causes every aspect of society to get redefined.

What is fairness?

What does it mean to be a person?

Should society protect the weak or screen them out of the gene pool.