Where do Newbies Start?
- Thread starter Tallguy
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He makes no mention that this "her" was his wife, who was a crewmember on Kirk's ship when he was a captain, she betrayed Kirk and Starfleet for Khan's sake, and she went into exile with Khan and his people rather than facing court-martial for her actions. Knowing this adds layers to why Khan hates Kirk so much - he blames Kirk for Marla's death.
"Those kind of shows"?
How would she know if she likes them unless she tries them?
He does say that she was his wife, but the rest of the information is not in TWOK, true. It's also true that it adds layers, but the fact that he blames Kirk for her death and why are pretty explicitly stated onscreen during TWOK.
I saw Space Seed for the first time 3-4 years after I saw TWOK for the first time - in fact, I had seen TWOK multiple times (and owned a copy on VHS) before I had an opportunity to watch Space Seed. Seeing Space Seed added extra context to the movie, but it didn't effect my enjoyment of TWOK one way or another. I would recommend starting with TWOK and going from there. If she likes it, you can always backtrack to Space Seed and other key TOS episodes.
Adds layers? Why does that matter? It's great for fans, but is not at all necessary for anyone watching that movie. My point was that TWOK was set up for people to enjoy, who didn't even watch the series. I'm kind of stunned. I've never heard anyone, in all my years on Trek discussion boards, suggest that no one could enjoy TWOK without 1st seeing Space Seed. That's like saying you have to see Phantom Menace before you see A New Hope, which of course, pretty much everyone before 1999 most assuredly didn't. Chronology means absolutely squat to proper drama. In fact, some writers deliberately choose to move out of chronological sequence, because the exact opposite can be even more useful
Besides, The OP specifically mentioned a bit of hesitation about using the dated look of TOS for someone's introduction to Star Trek, which I can relate to. TWOK is the perfect workaround for that imho. It was written specifically to bring the general population into the universe or characters, so well that they might even want to invest deeper & seek out the origin story
Oh, do forgive me for daring to go against the current notion that the 1960s are the Dark Ages. 
Why not start with a TOS episode? Presumably the friend isn't too stupid to realize that as each spinoff came around, the shows looked more and more modern.
Why not start with a TOS episode? Presumably the friend isn't too stupid to realize that as each spinoff came around, the shows looked more and more modern.
I vote C. The Kelvin movies are a great introduction point which appeals to modern sensibilities. From there you'll get the jist of every Trek production.
I saw WoK before SS and understood everything just fine. When I finally saw SS I kept wondering why Khan's followers changed so completely and why Khan's skin colour was totally different.
Atmospheric changes on Ceti Alpha V? I mean he had been in that protective suit for all those years, unless he was inside the domicile. Maybe TWOK was his real skin tone, & Space Seed was something of a sun tan, which he'd had before entering cryostasis. In fact, Space Seed supports that, because if you notice when Khan first climbs out of his sickbay bed, he has shorts on & his legs are a lighter skin color than his upper body & face
As to Khans followers, to my recollection, we only ever see maybe a dozen or so in Space Seed (If that many). It's possible none of them survived on Ceti Alpha V. Khan only has about a dozen or so people left with him on the planet in TWoK (That we see). So even with both the Space Seed & TWOK crew shown, that is still only 2 thirds of the total crew, plenty enough to have both groups be different individuals
My only confusion was that the crew he has in TWOK all look like they are in their early 20s... maybe 30s, & the ones in Space Seed look Khan's age (Who would be perhaps pushing 45-50 by the time of TWOK. So the crew we see in TWOK had to have been very young during their cryostasis aboard the Botany Bay... maybe even children... which is odd
I saw TWOK before Space Seed. Worked fine for me. I introduced my wife (at the time girlfriend) to Trek movies via TWOK (she had never seen an episode), and she's now a huge fan...seen every movie on opening night since Nemesis, binged DS9 with me, and watches DSC faithfully.
I think TWOK works just fine. Quality is quality.
Yeah chronological order doesn't seem that important. Because you can always go back and see the connections either way.
I think the last thing you want to do with a newbie is start them with a "Well, you have to see this one first...".
I would recommend TWOK. It's a good introduction to the original characters and it's a tight, fast paced film. Then you can show her Space Seed.
To introduce TNG I wouldn't bother with Encounter At Farpoint personally. I'd start with The Big Goodbye. It's the first and best Holodeck show and that makes it a good sample of the TNG era. Then I'd recommend some of the following episodes; 11001001, Heart of Glory, Conspiracy, The Schizoid Man, The Measure of A Man, Q Who, Who Watches The Watchers, The Enemy, Yesterday's Enterprise, and The Best of Both Worlds.
To introduce TNG I wouldn't bother with Encounter At Farpoint personally. I'd start with The Big Goodbye. It's the first and best Holodeck show and that makes it a good sample of the TNG era. Then I'd recommend some of the following episodes; 11001001, Heart of Glory, Conspiracy, The Schizoid Man, The Measure of A Man, Q Who, Who Watches The Watchers, The Enemy, Yesterday's Enterprise, and The Best of Both Worlds.
Start with the best or second-best episodes, so the viewer can still see better episodes later on as well as more average entries. If they don't like the pacing or feel... that happens.
When I re-did DS9, I started with 'Way of the Warrior" and skipped around. WotW might be a great springboard for DS9 in general as it is a loose pilot in its own way and when I finally got to season 1, I was floored by how solid it was for being its first season.
And, noting VOY, pilots like "Caretaker" doesn't begin to really sell the show (IMHO) but a ton of episodes in seasons 3-5 really do. "Blink of an Eye" isn't VOY's original premise, but it's a solid episode. I'd hold off on "Living Witness" until viewers got a fair grasp of characters so they could see the altered versions.
TNG - almost any season 3 episode nails it. Some in seasons 1 and 2 are worthy (like what Armus said above, but I'd throw in Contagion, Q Who, Peak Performance) but season 3 really sets the stage for all future Trek.
TOS... as with the consensus, reminding of the importance of the 1960s as well as the action-oriented nature... despite often having a stretched A-plot and not always having a B-plot.
And definitely show "The Cage" as it feels like proto-TNG.
When I re-did DS9, I started with 'Way of the Warrior" and skipped around. WotW might be a great springboard for DS9 in general as it is a loose pilot in its own way and when I finally got to season 1, I was floored by how solid it was for being its first season.
And, noting VOY, pilots like "Caretaker" doesn't begin to really sell the show (IMHO) but a ton of episodes in seasons 3-5 really do. "Blink of an Eye" isn't VOY's original premise, but it's a solid episode. I'd hold off on "Living Witness" until viewers got a fair grasp of characters so they could see the altered versions.
TNG - almost any season 3 episode nails it. Some in seasons 1 and 2 are worthy (like what Armus said above, but I'd throw in Contagion, Q Who, Peak Performance) but season 3 really sets the stage for all future Trek.
TOS... as with the consensus, reminding of the importance of the 1960s as well as the action-oriented nature... despite often having a stretched A-plot and not always having a B-plot.
And definitely show "The Cage" as it feels like proto-TNG.
With little editing from me to the original post..... This is pretty much how anyone should jump into Star Trek.
I think this is the correct answer to the original question.
He makes no mention that this "her" was his wife, who was a crewmember on Kirk's ship when he was a captain, she betrayed Kirk and Starfleet for Khan's sake, and she went into exile with Khan and his people rather than facing court-martial for her actions. Knowing this adds layers to why Khan hates Kirk so much - he blames Kirk for Marla's death.
"Those kind of shows"?
How would she know if she likes them unless she tries them?
Whilst the extra detail might be nice, I'm sure the average person can understand that Person A blames Person B for the loss of Person C.
I don't recall Khan ever mentioning either Marla's name or that he had a wife in the movie. All he said was "... as you left me... as you left her... buried alive..."
People who have seen "Space Seed" know who he's talking about, of course, as do people who have been told the plot of that episode. But people going into it cold have absolutely no idea who this "her" refers to.
People who have seen "Space Seed" know who he's talking about, of course, as do people who have been told the plot of that episode. But people going into it cold have absolutely no idea who this "her" refers to.
During Khan's introductory scene: "What do you think? It killed 20 of my people...including my beloved wife."
During the scene where Kirk has just found Checkov and Terrell: "He's gone completely mad Admiral. He blames you for the death of his wife"
It's all there.
No, it's not all there. That Khan had a wife is there. That he blames Kirk for her death is there. But who she was, how she became his wife, what she actually meant to him, is not there. It's only in Space Seed. Khan is crazed in TWOK, but that can be easily attributed to the conditions on Ceti Alpha V. Only those that have seen Space Seed know just how much of it can be attributed to who Marla McGivers was, both as herself, and to Khan.
What's unfortunate is that Madlyn Rhue was asked to do TWOK, and refused. She didn't want the world to see her suffering from MS, and had backed away from acting at the time. Yet, if she'd done the film, no one would have ever known, as her part would have been exclusively lying in bed doing a poignant death scene with Ricardo Montalban. If she'd done the scene, Khan would have been a much more tragic figure, rather than the mere madman we saw.
What's unfortunate is that Madlyn Rhue was asked to do TWOK, and refused. She didn't want the world to see her suffering from MS, and had backed away from acting at the time. Yet, if she'd done the film, no one would have ever known, as her part would have been exclusively lying in bed doing a poignant death scene with Ricardo Montalban. If she'd done the scene, Khan would have been a much more tragic figure, rather than the mere madman we saw.
k
1. None of what you've just said is relevant to the point of the thread, which is where the best place might be to start a newbie. Whether or not your viewing experience might be "enhanced" by having seen the original episode is not in any way linked to whether or not the film, as a stand alone movie, is a good place to begin. Which clearly it is, based on my own personal experiences and those of others.
2. Apparently it still contains enough background to make this the best film in the series, and my favorite despite having never seen Space Seed when I originally viewed it.
3. I have screened the film for various people who had little-to-no exposure to Star Trek, including one of my closest friends and my wife. Nobody cared that they hadn't seen Space Seed. Nobody had their enjoyment of the film impacted as a result.
4. I didn't say "everything from Space Seed is there." I pointed out the error of the post I quoted (which by the way was not you) which indicated that the film wasn't specific about Khan's wife. I gave two examples that refuted this, and said "it's all there" meaning the evidence that it in fact WAS clear that Khan was pissed about his wife's death was there contained in the dialogue of the film.
Wrath of Khan was masterfully crafted so that knowledge of the original episode is completely unnecessary to enjoy the film.
1) Thread drift happens. Get over it.
2) Opinion. Everyone has one. Get over it.
3) See 2.
4) "It's all there" implies that there is no more to Khan's motivation. The existence of Space Seed, whether you've seen it or not, is vivid proof of the opposite being true, as an absolute. And, people chime in on conversations here all the time. Get used to it.
2) Opinion. Everyone has one. Get over it.
3) See 2.
4) "It's all there" implies that there is no more to Khan's motivation. The existence of Space Seed, whether you've seen it or not, is vivid proof of the opposite being true, as an absolute. And, people chime in on conversations here all the time. Get used to it.
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