Where do Newbies Start?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Tallguy, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Commodore Commodore

    May 17, 2009
    No, it's not all there. That Khan had a wife is there. That he blames Kirk for her death is there. But who she was, how she became his wife, what she actually meant to him, is not there. It's only in Space Seed. Khan is crazed in TWOK, but that can be easily attributed to the conditions on Ceti Alpha V. Only those that have seen Space Seed know just how much of it can be attributed to who Marla McGivers was, both as herself, and to Khan.

    What's unfortunate is that Madlyn Rhue was asked to do TWOK, and refused. She didn't want the world to see her suffering from MS, and had backed away from acting at the time. Yet, if she'd done the film, no one would have ever known, as her part would have been exclusively lying in bed doing a poignant death scene with Ricardo Montalban. If she'd done the scene, Khan would have been a much more tragic figure, rather than the mere madman we saw.
  2. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Apr 19, 2014
    New England

    1. None of what you've just said is relevant to the point of the thread, which is where the best place might be to start a newbie. Whether or not your viewing experience might be "enhanced" by having seen the original episode is not in any way linked to whether or not the film, as a stand alone movie, is a good place to begin. Which clearly it is, based on my own personal experiences and those of others.

    2. Apparently it still contains enough background to make this the best film in the series, and my favorite despite having never seen Space Seed when I originally viewed it.

    3. I have screened the film for various people who had little-to-no exposure to Star Trek, including one of my closest friends and my wife. Nobody cared that they hadn't seen Space Seed. Nobody had their enjoyment of the film impacted as a result.

    4. I didn't say "everything from Space Seed is there." I pointed out the error of the post I quoted (which by the way was not you) which indicated that the film wasn't specific about Khan's wife. I gave two examples that refuted this, and said "it's all there" meaning the evidence that it in fact WAS clear that Khan was pissed about his wife's death was there contained in the dialogue of the film.

    Wrath of Khan was masterfully crafted so that knowledge of the original episode is completely unnecessary to enjoy the film.
  3. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Commodore Commodore

    May 17, 2009
    1) Thread drift happens. Get over it.
    2) Opinion. Everyone has one. Get over it.
    3) See 2.
    4) "It's all there" implies that there is no more to Khan's motivation. The existence of Space Seed, whether you've seen it or not, is vivid proof of the opposite being true, as an absolute. And, people chime in on conversations here all the time. Get used to it.
  4. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Apr 19, 2014
    New England
    I understand thread drift. It doesn't change the irrelevance of your post.

    I don't need you to explain to me how a message board works. Repeating "get over it" over and over again is defensive and unnecessary. I challenged your post, but it wasn't personal. If it felt personal, that's on you I'm afraid.

    Regardless of your opinion (and indeed everyone does have them, which just goes to show how valueless they are), my own experience indicates that your position is inaccurate.

    So not only was your post irrelevant to the primary topic, irrelevant to my response (that was not directed at you) and inaccurate to my experiences (I had no problem whatsoever understanding Khan's "motivations," nor has anyone I've ever shared the experience of the film with as their first exposure to the franchise)...for some reason you got chagrined as well.

    I'm not in any way arguing that the experience of watching TWOK wouldn't potentially be ENHANCED by having seen Space Seed first. I'm arguing that not seeing it in no way deminishes the effectiveness of TWOK as an entry point for Trek virgins.

    Which was the point of my posts. And the point of this thread.

    Now, is there anything else we need to discuss to satisfy our need to defend (unintentionally) bruised egos, or are we quite finished? "Get over it" indeed.
  5. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jun 19, 2013
    Bad Thoughts
    You don't need to understand the invention of fire to appreciate human history, and certainly you can start almost anywhere in Trek and get a sense of what it's all about.

    That said, I think the best thing for the OP to do is just show the friend the pilots for the five pre-Discovery series as samplers. It will give her an idea of what each is about, and allow her to decide what direction to go in.
  6. 1001001

    1001001 Boorish Jackass Moderator

    Nov 3, 2001
    Russia Occupied America
    You're coming across as awfully hostile. And most of the time someone declares their opinion as "absolute", they're on shaky ground.

    Everyone, please leave the personal stuff out of it.

  7. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Jan 30, 2001
    When he captures Terrell and Chekov on Ceti Alpha V...

    Terrell also mentions "his wife" later...

    Kor and 1001001 like this.
  8. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

    Jul 31, 2001
    Dahar Master final exams
    The bond between beloved spouses is very powerful. When I watch TWOK, Khan's anger, pain and loss come through quite clearly even though the movie itself doesn't give any background on Marla.

    And I, too, watched TWOK many times before I ever saw "Space Seed." In fact, "Space Seed" itself does not give me any indication whatsoever that Marla is actually "beloved" to Khan. She's just something for him to "take" in his conceited, power-mad lust for conquest; a sheepish, groveling and servile follower for him to manipulate and exert control over in his sheer arrogance. :wtf: :barf:

    King Daniel Beyond and Vger23 like this.
  9. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    May 26, 2007
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    I don't disagree that it was disgusting to see her literally grovel on her knees and beg him to allow her to stay with him.
    Vger23 likes this.
  10. Astra

    Astra Captain Captain

    Sep 29, 2015
    Dresden, Germany
    Just to give a female opinion... all I know is this: Whenever they happened to do a night with all the old Star Trek movies on TV and I randomly zapped into one (without actually being interested in sci-fi at the time I want to add) just to see what all the fuss was about I couldn't really get into these kinda old men (yes, I know how shallow that sounds).

    I tried again years later with the Kelvin movies and felt that now I was too old to get into these young men...

    But once I decided to start properly at the beginning with TOS I fell in love with the young fresh-faced Kirk within minutes ;) Episodic TV worked much better for me than the movies.

    Then later coming back to the movies they had much more meaning to me, as I got the sense of how it must have been at the time - fans being happy that their beloved characters were re-united. And for the actors as well, having the chance to work with each other again. So, the plot did become less important to me than the characters and their interactions.

    So, in the end it comes to this, whether young Kirk is her type or not.

    My only exposure to Shatner before that had been Boston Legal. Took me quite a while to overlap these two opposite Shatners in my mind. And yes, I guess it is crazy to fall for a guy 50 years later when in real life he could be your grandfather. The magic of TV where they stay young forever.
    Kor and Vger23 like this.
  11. KlingonCereal

    KlingonCereal Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Dec 29, 2017
    United States
    I think arguably starting with The Next Generation is your best bet. It's a fairly beloved show both by Trekkies and non-trek fans alike. Personally, I think The Measure of a Man in Season 2 is a great episode to show to people new to series. This is for a few reasons:
    1. Character development pretty much stands on its own in this episode (Such as Data being an android).
    2. It touches on a good bit of political commentary, which is also a big attraction for fans of the series.
    3. Riker is placed in a fairly tough position and I think this can cause the viewer to reflect on similar positions of difficulty in their own lives, drawing a better connection with the show.
    4. It has Whoopi Goldberg.
    I'm sure there are other episodes people would use to introduce the show, but this one personaly stands out for me. Good luck! And I hope to see a new Trek fan here in a month or so :P