Where do Newbies Start?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Tallguy, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    It's pointless to show TWOK without first showing "Space Seed". Otherwise, how do people really understand why Khan is so vengeance-minded toward Kirk, and why he's so dangerous in general, and who is this "her" Khan mentions? Long-time fans know he means Marla McGivers, but someone totally unfamiliar with the series wouldn't have a clue.

    Gah. Does this person not understand the concept of franchises and spinoffs? TOS is the original series and everything else is a spinoff. It shouldn't be too hard to understand that concept and that the spinoffs have different casts but most of it is set in the same basic universe. At this point I'd avoid nuTrek, since it's hard enough to just get into the series without explaining alt-universe series.

    The first episode I ever saw all the way through was "By Any Other Name." I'm not recommending that as a good starting place, but it was enough to grab my interest and make me want to see more. Two weeks later I had to admit I was hooked and have never gotten un-hooked. That was 42 years ago.
     
  2. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Because he monologues the entire history of events in the very first 2 minutes he's on screen? Including his ship's name, his genetic engineering, his century of origin, the planetary desolation, etc... He actually does nothing but detail the depths of his reasons & desires for vengeance throughout the entire film lol. About the only thing he DIDN'T mention was her name, but by that point, does that even really matter? I don't think so.

    They wouldn't have made that movie, were it not understandable for the general public, without knowing the canon. They expected, even then, that most of the cinema goers might not know who Khan was, or if they did have a vague memory from 2 decades earlier, they might not remember him all that well. Hell, I'd only ever seen Space Seed maybe once in reruns, by the time of the movie, & I was in grammar school. I didn't even remember him much. It didn't matter. Still a good movie, that, despite being the 2nd film, was actually designed to be an introduction, that wooed people into the franchise, because frankly... TMP didn't do anything to harken back to the old series
     
  3. JedGhost67

    JedGhost67 Commodore Commodore

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    I'd start with either the Kelvin movies or Enterprise; and then go back through DS9. I'd skip most of TNG and voyager unless she likes those kind of shows.
     
  4. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    "The Cage"
     
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  5. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    Why, just to get the worst crap out of the way first, so she'll enjoy TOS more?
    :vulcan:
     
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  6. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    He makes no mention that this "her" was his wife, who was a crewmember on Kirk's ship when he was a captain, she betrayed Kirk and Starfleet for Khan's sake, and she went into exile with Khan and his people rather than facing court-martial for her actions. Knowing this adds layers to why Khan hates Kirk so much - he blames Kirk for Marla's death.

    "Those kind of shows"? :vulcan:

    How would she know if she likes them unless she tries them?
     
  7. Garth Rockett

    Garth Rockett Commodore Commodore

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    He does say that she was his wife, but the rest of the information is not in TWOK, true. It's also true that it adds layers, but the fact that he blames Kirk for her death and why are pretty explicitly stated onscreen during TWOK.

    I saw Space Seed for the first time 3-4 years after I saw TWOK for the first time - in fact, I had seen TWOK multiple times (and owned a copy on VHS) before I had an opportunity to watch Space Seed. Seeing Space Seed added extra context to the movie, but it didn't effect my enjoyment of TWOK one way or another. I would recommend starting with TWOK and going from there. If she likes it, you can always backtrack to Space Seed and other key TOS episodes.
     
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  8. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Adds layers? Why does that matter? It's great for fans, but is not at all necessary for anyone watching that movie. My point was that TWOK was set up for people to enjoy, who didn't even watch the series. I'm kind of stunned. I've never heard anyone, in all my years on Trek discussion boards, suggest that no one could enjoy TWOK without 1st seeing Space Seed. That's like saying you have to see Phantom Menace before you see A New Hope, which of course, pretty much everyone before 1999 most assuredly didn't. Chronology means absolutely squat to proper drama. In fact, some writers deliberately choose to move out of chronological sequence, because the exact opposite can be even more useful

    Besides, The OP specifically mentioned a bit of hesitation about using the dated look of TOS for someone's introduction to Star Trek, which I can relate to. TWOK is the perfect workaround for that imho. It was written specifically to bring the general population into the universe or characters, so well that they might even want to invest deeper & seek out the origin story
     
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  9. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Oh, do forgive me for daring to go against the current notion that the 1960s are the Dark Ages. :rolleyes:

    Why not start with a TOS episode? Presumably the friend isn't too stupid to realize that as each spinoff came around, the shows looked more and more modern.
     
  10. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I vote C. The Kelvin movies are a great introduction point which appeals to modern sensibilities. From there you'll get the jist of every Trek production.

    I saw WoK before SS and understood everything just fine. When I finally saw SS I kept wondering why Khan's followers changed so completely and why Khan's skin colour was totally different.
     
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  11. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Atmospheric changes on Ceti Alpha V? I mean he had been in that protective suit for all those years, unless he was inside the domicile. Maybe TWOK was his real skin tone, & Space Seed was something of a sun tan, which he'd had before entering cryostasis. In fact, Space Seed supports that, because if you notice when Khan first climbs out of his sickbay bed, he has shorts on & his legs are a lighter skin color than his upper body & face:guffaw:

    As to Khans followers, to my recollection, we only ever see maybe a dozen or so in Space Seed (If that many). It's possible none of them survived on Ceti Alpha V. Khan only has about a dozen or so people left with him on the planet in TWoK (That we see). So even with both the Space Seed & TWOK crew shown, that is still only 2 thirds of the total crew, plenty enough to have both groups be different individuals

    My only confusion was that the crew he has in TWOK all look like they are in their early 20s... maybe 30s, & the ones in Space Seed look Khan's age (Who would be perhaps pushing 45-50 by the time of TWOK. So the crew we see in TWOK had to have been very young during their cryostasis aboard the Botany Bay... maybe even children... which is odd
     
  12. I Am Kirok

    I Am Kirok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I saw TWOK before Space Seed. Worked fine for me. I introduced my wife (at the time girlfriend) to Trek movies via TWOK (she had never seen an episode), and she's now a huge fan...seen every movie on opening night since Nemesis, binged DS9 with me, and watches DSC faithfully.

    I think TWOK works just fine. Quality is quality.
     
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  13. Balok

    Balok Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah chronological order doesn't seem that important. Because you can always go back and see the connections either way.
     
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  14. The Old House Mixer

    The Old House Mixer Mortally challenged mod Moderator

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    I think the last thing you want to do with a newbie is start them with a "Well, you have to see this one first...".
     
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  15. Armus

    Armus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I would recommend TWOK. It's a good introduction to the original characters and it's a tight, fast paced film. Then you can show her Space Seed.

    To introduce TNG I wouldn't bother with Encounter At Farpoint personally. I'd start with The Big Goodbye. It's the first and best Holodeck show and that makes it a good sample of the TNG era. Then I'd recommend some of the following episodes; 11001001, Heart of Glory, Conspiracy, The Schizoid Man, The Measure of A Man, Q Who, Who Watches The Watchers, The Enemy, Yesterday's Enterprise, and The Best of Both Worlds.
     
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  16. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Start with the best or second-best episodes, so the viewer can still see better episodes later on as well as more average entries. If they don't like the pacing or feel... that happens.

    When I re-did DS9, I started with 'Way of the Warrior" and skipped around. WotW might be a great springboard for DS9 in general as it is a loose pilot in its own way and when I finally got to season 1, I was floored by how solid it was for being its first season.

    And, noting VOY, pilots like "Caretaker" doesn't begin to really sell the show (IMHO) but a ton of episodes in seasons 3-5 really do. "Blink of an Eye" isn't VOY's original premise, but it's a solid episode. I'd hold off on "Living Witness" until viewers got a fair grasp of characters so they could see the altered versions.

    TNG - almost any season 3 episode nails it. Some in seasons 1 and 2 are worthy (like what Armus said above, but I'd throw in Contagion, Q Who, Peak Performance) but season 3 really sets the stage for all future Trek.

    TOS... as with the consensus, reminding of the importance of the 1960s as well as the action-oriented nature... despite often having a stretched A-plot and not always having a B-plot.

    And definitely show "The Cage" as it feels like proto-TNG.
     
  17. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think this is the correct answer to the original question.
     
  18. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Whilst the extra detail might be nice, I'm sure the average person can understand that Person A blames Person B for the loss of Person C.
     
  19. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    I don't recall Khan ever mentioning either Marla's name or that he had a wife in the movie. All he said was "... as you left me... as you left her... buried alive..."

    People who have seen "Space Seed" know who he's talking about, of course, as do people who have been told the plot of that episode. But people going into it cold have absolutely no idea who this "her" refers to.
     
  20. I Am Kirok

    I Am Kirok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    During Khan's introductory scene: "What do you think? It killed 20 of my people...including my beloved wife."

    During the scene where Kirk has just found Checkov and Terrell: "He's gone completely mad Admiral. He blames you for the death of his wife"

    It's all there.
     
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