Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Warped9, May 16, 2010.
When everyone is bad then noone is. Evil has been effectively destroyed.
Thanks for that, Captain Threadfart.
"There's only you and me and we just disagree."-Dave Mason
1984 - Kirk "You fool, look around you! The planet's destroying itself!"
Kruge "Yes, exhilarating, isn't it?"
Kirk "If we don't help each other, we'll die here!"
Kirk "Perfect! Then that's the way it shall be!"
Kruge falls down and over the ledge. Kirk tries to help him back up, Kruge grabs Kirk's leg.
Kirk - "I... (Kick in the head) have had... (Kick in the head) enough of... (Emphatic Kick) YOU....."
KIRK: This is Captain James T. Kirk of the USS Enterprise. Your ship is compromised. Your too close to the singularity to provide assistance, which we will provide.
SPOCK: (to Kirk) Captain, what are you doing?
KIRK: You show them compassion may be the only way to earn peace with Romulus. It's logic, Spock. Thought you'd like that.
SPOCK: No, not really. Not this time.
NERO: (on viewscreen) I would rather suffer the end of Romulus a thousand times. I would rather die in agony than accept assistance from you.
KIRK: You got it. Arm phasers, fire everything we got.
(Dialogue taken from two sites.)
I'm still rather confused why some people are so on 2009's Kirk killing Nero when he was pretty much dead, while no problem with 1984's Kirk killing Kruge when it probably would have been an easier rescue than for Nero? Maybe it's just because it's cool to hate...
^ If you don't see how that exchange totally flies in the face of everything we know about Kirk and Spock, then I just can't help you.
But yeah, I must have my position because it's cool to hate. I'm a hater. Word.
Because it's cooler to hate murdering Klingon bastards than murdering Romulan bastards?
And I guess because while the Kirk vs. Kruge thing was just personal, Kirk vs. Nero also doomed the guys washing dishes and keeping the inventory straight somewhere in the bowels of the Narada.
And it's never cool to hate. Because in the words of the noted philosopher Dalton, "No one wins in a fight."
It's one thing to let someone die who'd rather (Nero), but it's something else to shoot everything you've got at him to help him on his way.
Incorrect analogy. Kirk had offered Kruge assistance and Kruge then tried to kill Kirk by dragging him over the cliff with him. Kirk killed Kruge out of self-defense, plain and simple. Had he not kicked Kruge in the face repeatedly until Kruge let go, Kirk would have died and so would Spock (again) and probably McCoy, too. Nero, on the other hand, was defenseless and powerless--all he had left were the lunatic ravings of a man who had lost everything. Kirk choosing to stick around long enough to unload on the Narada was nothing but an act of childish spite, one which put the Enterprise in jeopardy. Now, had Nero locked a tractor beam on the Enterprise or sent out a couple of those Doc OcK grappler chains to snare her, you'd have a point but he did not and you do not. Thanks for playing.
I can totally respect this reasoning.
I typed up a debate answer to others, but I'm frankly no good at debating. So I'm not going to try.
In my opinion, Spock was Spock. In my opinion, Kirk was right. In my opinion, it was a good movie.
Kirk had no idea if Nero and his ship would survive passing through the singularity. If they did, and Nero resumed his attacks in another time period, he could be dooming further worlds and billions or trillions of beings to destruction. (In some other splinter timeline, granted). He gave Nero an opportunity to surrender, which was declined.
At this point, I have no problem with Kirk ensuring that the Narada would not survive his passage through the wormhole given Nero's demonstrated astonishing destructive tendencies.
Nero: "I would rather die in agony than accept assistance from you. "
Sulu: "He's locked on multiple tractor beams."
Kirk: "Arm phasers, fire everything we got."
Brutal Strudel that would have made so much more sense, one fukking line from any of the support characters.
Honestly, it didn't bother me a bit. The only one of the oft-repeated complaints about the movie that really resonates with me is that Kirk's promoted too quickly at the end...and that wasn't a deal-breaker.
Didn't bother me. Kirk offered to help, he said no, end of story (for Nero).
Eh. It bugged me but, like ever so much else in the movie, I can live with it--obviously, it wasn't a deal-breaker for me; I saw the movie 3 times in the theater and own the DVD. But it was not in any way equivalent to what Kirk did in TSFS, that's just silly.
I think what I love most about this movie is that I can still love it in spite of agreeing with nearly everything the so-called haters say about it.
(Fun Fact: When I was 14, I wrote many a Letter of Comment to Interstat, explaining why Kirk's actions in that film were consistent with the humane warrior of TOS and not indicative of a new "Dirty Jim" for the Reagan era. I couldn't do that with this scene.)
If that one scene were all there were to criticize then you could probably let it pass. But because it's just one of countless other fuckups in the film I can't overlook it.
isn't that indictative of the whole movie?
Nero murdered billions of people. Kirk had the responsibility of making sure he didn't have the chance to murder anyone else, either by taking him into custody or by ensuring that he didn't survive another trip through the black hole.
I don't have any problem with it.
I have no problem with it either. I didn't see the movie and I'm hoping the next one is about Khan.
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