Who did Spock mind meld with before "Dagger of the Mind"?

[Denise]

I just don't see any of the characters in that show evolving into the characters in TOS. I see them becoming totally different characters, which would mean TOS could be totally overwritten. Nimoy's Spock would be overwritten by a more emotional Spock. The relationship between Spock and McCoy would be different. Chapel would be totally different as she is quite different from Barrett's Chapel (not a bad thing in my book if her unrequited love for Spock ends and more possibilities for her character open up). Year 1 would be an entirely different crew in many ways. They would not be the TOS crew.

As far as Spock mind melding, I would imagine he learned it from a teacher. The question would be why it was taught if it was some kind of formal lesson. If not, he must have been taught it surreptitiously, or perhaps it's taught in his clan, if they are all "melders." (There were likely to be warnings about letting others know he or the members of his clan could do it or at least acknowledging that they could do it.)

 

[Just a Bill]

They used the Gorn, the metrons and Trelane. All beings or aliens that were distinctly encountered first in TOS.

This is what I mean when I say they don't respect the universe. Everything is fair game to be taken and invalidated (sometimes not even bothering to come up with a retcon explanation) and "re-imagined" according to whatever the writer wants, all while pretending it's all one continuity. It's lazy writing to not come up with new compelling material and instead try to milk the 'member-berries for all they're worth in the hopes that longtime fans will embrace the new shows.

This is not to say that later installments can't refer back to earlier stuff. They absolutely can if it's done well, and respectfully, and with some craftsmanship. "The Naked Now" did it without invalidating TOS. "Relics" did it without invalidating TOS. And of course "Trials and Tribble-ations" is an excellent example.

Compare that to "Klingons are insects now" and "Archer, Burnham, and Pike actually met all these classic aliens before the first contacts we saw in TOS" and "none of Spock's 'firsts with humanity' were actually firsts". Not craftsmanship. I don't go so far as to call it "cultural vandalism" as some do, but it is lazy, viewer-manipulative, and kind of desperate. Probably none of that would matter if it were actually good. But sadly it's just not good enough to make a lot of us look past the disrespect to TOS.

 

[Denise]

I just don't see any of the characters in that show evolving into the characters in TOS. I see them becoming totally different characters, which would mean TOS could be totally overwritten. Nimoy's Spock would be overwritten by a more emotional Spock. The relationship between Spock and McCoy would be different. Chapel would be totally different as she is quite different from Barrett's Chapel (not a bad thing in my book if her unrequited love for Spock ends and more possibilities for her character open up). Year 1 would be an entirely different crew in many ways. They would not be the TOS crew.

As far as Spock mind melding, I would imagine he learned it from a teacher. Perhaps only the most talented students were taught it. The question would be why it was taught if it was some kind of formal lesson. If it is not something all Vulcans are taught (why would a baker or flitter mechanic need to know it?), he might have been taught it surreptitiously, or perhaps it's taught in his clan, if they are all "melders." (There were likely to be warnings about letting others know he or the members of his clan could do it or at least acknowledging that they could do it.)

 

[TRON JA307020]

This is what I mean when I say they don't respect the universe. Everything is fair game to be taken and invalidated (sometimes not even bothering to come up with a retcon explanation) and "re-imagined" according to whatever the writer wants, all while pretending it's all one continuity. It's lazy writing to not come up with new compelling material and instead try to milk the 'member-berries for all they're worth in the hopes that longtime fans will embrace the new shows.

This is not to say that later installments can't refer back to earlier stuff. They absolutely can if it's done well, and respectfully, and with some craftsmanship. "The Naked Now" did it without invalidating TOS. "Relics" did it without invalidating TOS. And of course "Trials and Tribble-ations" is an excellent example.

Compare that to "Klingons are insects now" and "Archer, Burnham, and Pike actually met all these classic aliens before the first contacts we saw in TOS" and "none of Spock's 'firsts with humanity' were actually firsts". Not craftsmanship. I don't go so far as to call it "cultural vandalism" as some do, but it is lazy, viewer-manipulative, and kind of desperate. Probably none of that would matter if it were actually good. But sadly it's just not good enough to make a lot of us look past the disrespect to TOS.

Exactly. We even got pretty much a remake of Arena for Pete's sake. The metrons even showed up at the end. Its just diluting what we saw in tos. There's no reason to do that.

 

[TRON JA307020]

The smartass in me wants to point out that Colt was on Disco, but that won't help matters any since they turned her into a spiky faced alien for some reason. But really, SNW doesn't seem to acknowledge the existence of Yeomans (outside of the Rigel episode) as indeed TOS itself did by the second season. With that in mind, what really can be done with Colt?

Was Jose Tyler really that memorable a character? I mean, really?

Disco already implied Boyce was gone given in the finale two-parter Culber was offered a transfer to the Enterprise, which he was going to accept until at the last minute deciding to join the Disco crew on their journey to the 32nd century. As for Piper, no one ever acknowledges him. Hell, even the novels contrive a reason to bring McCoy in early to avoid using Piper, or they just ignore sickbay altogether. The only time Piper was in a novel he was there just long enough to be killed. There was never any reason to expect him to be on SNW.

If SNW was a true continuance of the cage and its crew than yes they would have built on those earlier crew members. Kurtzmsn joked that it took 58 years for the show to be greenlit after The Cage. Ridiculous as SNW doesn't resemble much of what we know of The Cage. Mostly a different crew and different ship.

 

[BillJ]

If SNW was a true continuance of the cage and its crew than yes they would have built on those earlier crew members. Kurtzmsn joked that it took 58 years for the show to be greenlit after The Cage. Ridiculous as SNW doesn't resemble much of what we know of The Cage. Mostly a different crew and different ship.

Maybe one or two should've been around, but not the whole cast of characters.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Maybe one or two should've been around, but not the whole cast of characters.

Exactly. Spock was honestly enough. But we have nearly the whole crew now and kirk keeps dropping by. It already is like year one. Lol. When kurtzman pitched it the brass at paramount probably thought : "Isn't that the same show with the same characters we have now ?" Lol.

 

[Just a Bill]

Maybe one or two should've been around, but not the whole cast of characters.

Why not just build up to it over time? They could have introduced Colt (real Colt, I mean) in a later season and created some emotional resonance with her appearance, like by implying to the audience that now all the pieces are on the board for the fateful Talos IV mission to take place. Maybe there could even be a kind of mild tension or anticipation, which they could let simmer for a few episodes. Or whatever. [edit: struck out because I found out I didn't understand the sequencing] But all those possibilities go out the window when they "spend" – by which I mean waste – a classic character on a pointless continuity violation. Nobody gives a crap that they introduced "Colt" in name only, just like it had zero emotional resonance to see "Mr. Kyle" again when it couldn't possibly have been the same Mr. Kyle. So dumb and pointless. It's not the names we have come to care about, it's the people, you knucklehead writers and showrunners. This comes off like poor judgment, or carelessness, or a desire to pee on every tree and rewrite things just to prove you can.

 

[BillJ]

Exactly. Spock was honestly enough. But we have nearly the whole crew now and kirk keeps dropping by. It already is like year one. Lol. When kurtzman pitched it the brass at paramount probably thought : "Isn't that the same show with the same characters we have now ?" Lol.

I'm honestly betting it was the other way around. That there was upper management with $ signs in their eyes at the thought of regurgitating TOS. I imagine a lot of this was dictated.

 

[BillJ]

Why not just build up to it over time? They could have introduced Colt (real Colt, I mean) in a later season and created some emotional resonance with her appearance, like by implying to the audience that now all the pieces are on the board for the fateful Talos IV mission to take place. Maybe there could even be a kind of mild tension or anticipation, which they could let simmer for a few episodes. Or whatever. But all those possibilities go out the window when they "spend" – by which I mean waste – a classic character on a pointless continuity violation. Nobody gives a crap that they introduced "Colt" in name only, just like it had zero emotional resonance to see "Mr. Kyle" again when it couldn't possibly have been the same Mr. Kyle. So dumb and pointless. It's not the names we have come to care about, it's the people, you knucklehead writers and showrunners. This comes off like poor judgment, or carelessness, or a desire to pee on every tree and rewrite things just to prove you can.

Is the female Asian Mitchell supposed to be their version of Gary Mitchell?

 

[Yistaan]

Spock presumably mind melds with Pike, La'an, Chapel, and Uhura when they're Vulcans to get them to change back to human. He also mind melded with La'an in Season 1 of SNW but maybe Spock considers her an augment, not a human.

The Kirk SNW meld would thus be the sole clear cut contradiction so far.

 

[fireproof78]

Why not just build up to it over time? They could have introduced Colt (real Colt, I mean) in a later season and created some emotional resonance with her appearance, like by implying to the audience that now all the pieces are on the board for the fateful Talos IV mission to take place. Maybe there could even be a kind of mild tension or anticipation, which they could let simmer for a few episodes. Or whatever. But all those possibilities go out the window when they "spend" – by which I mean waste – a classic character on a pointless continuity violation. Nobody gives a crap that they introduced "Colt" in name only, just like it had zero emotional resonance to see "Mr. Kyle" again when it couldn't possibly have been the same Mr. Kyle. So dumb and pointless. It's not the names we have come to care about, it's the people, you knucklehead writers and showrunners. This comes off like poor judgment, or carelessness, or a desire to pee on every tree and rewrite things just to prove you can.

I mean what of Colt or Kyle made them real characters? I love Pike's Yeoman, but we don't even know her name from the actual dialog (nor the one on DSC).

There's just not a lot of there there to these characters to think they're wasting anything except fan's patients who happen to know the one yeoman's name was Colt, not Rand.

 

[Just a Bill]

I mean what of Colt or Kyle made them real characters?

Same things that make any other Star Trek characters real. If you don't consider them real characters, that's up to you. We all make our own assessments. (I would be curious, though, to know who else in TOS doesn't count to you? Kyle had more appearances than Rand; should Rand also be relegated to the insignificant list?)

Obviously the SNW team thought Colt was real enough, and the name significant enough, to put a character on the same ship, under the same captain, in the same time frame, bearing the same rank, sex, and name (a decidedly Earth name at that). It's not a coincidence, or an accident; the naming was intentional. They thought it had significance, I thought it had significance, but we disagree on whether or not it was smart/dumb, cool/cringey, or respectful/disrespectful.

I doesn't bother me if some fans liked it. It shouldn't bother other fans if I don't.

 

[fireproof78]

Obviously the DSC team thought Colt was real enough, and the name significant enough, to put a character on Pike's ship bearing the same rank, sex, and name (a decidedly Earth name at that). It's not a coincidence, or an accident; the naming was intentional. They thought it had significance, I thought it had significance, but we disagree on whether or not it was smart or wise or cool or respectful.

It wasn't spoken on screen so it's not really Colt on either side.

(I would be curious, though, to know who else in TOS doesn't count to you? Kyle had more appearances than Rand; should Rand also be relegated to the insignificant list?

Most of the characters on the mainline TOS series count, but Pike's Yeoman, or Jose Tyler kind of don't.

It's more than just a name but how they interact with people. Kyle probably should be higher up on the list for me but I genuinely cannot remember him, and probably am confusing him with Mr. Leslie.

Regardless, I don't find it disrespectful. Mileage will vary.

 

[Just a Bill]

It wasn't spoken on screen so it's not really Colt on either side.

Of course both are Colt. We have end credits, scripts, call sheets, writer's guides, and so on that make things like this clear in many cases.

If you're going to make names spoken in dialog the sole arbiter here and disregard all other confirmed information, have you thought about what other implications that would have? Do you consider the two Number Ones to be obviously different characters because "Una Chin-Riley" wasn't spoken on screen in TOS?

 

[Greg Cox]

They could have introduced Colt (real Colt, I mean) in a later season and created some emotional resonance with her appearance, like by implying to the audience that now all the pieces are on the board for the fateful Talos IV mission to take place.

Except that SNW takes place years after that fateful Talos IV mission. It's in Pike's past before the show even starts, so there's nothing to anticipate there. Pre-accident Pike has already come and gone from Talos IV.

I harp on this simply because I keep running into folks who seem to think that SNW is leading up to "The Cage" -- possibly because they didn't watch Discovery?

SNW takes place after "The Cage" and before "The Menagerie."

 

[Just a Bill]

Except that SNW takes place years after that fateful Talos IV mission.

Ah, thanks for explaining that. So my speculation about what they maybe might have done with the Colt character (which was already useless when I wrote it) is completely irrelevant.

I harp on this simply because I keep running into folks who seem to think that SNW is leading up to "The Cage" -- possibly because they didn't watch Discovery?

Yeah, I couldn't watch enough of either of these shows to figure out the details of their time frames. I guess it would be smarter to start SNW after The Cage rather than before. (I've struck out part of my earlier comment, in the hopes that I can become part of the solution instead of part of the problem.)

 

[Nerys Myk]

SNW takes place after "The Cage" and before "The Menagerie."

This needs to be pinned to the top of every page.

 

[Metryq]

Even Horatio Hornblower had inconsistencies. It must be alternate universes inter-phasing through Tholian space.

 

[fireproof78]

course both are Colt. We have end credits, scripts, call sheets, writer's guides, and so on that make things like this clear in many cases.

If you're going to make names spoken in dialog the sole arbiter here and disregard all other confirmed information, have you thought about what other implications that would have? Do you consider the two Number Ones to be obviously different characters because "Una Chin-Riley" wasn't spoken on screen in TOS?

I think intent is only one part, otherwise we have to explain James R. Kirk as being different than James T. Kirk.

Number One is then referred to as Una so both names get applied. Colt is never addressed as such so easier to fudge, especially with whatever was done on Discovery.