When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?
- Thread starter Ragitsu
- Start date
I was referring to the clones subject, since that wasn't even a VOYAGER episode. The Tuvix situation at least directly involved her, so I can see that as a subject for disagreeing with her decision.
Honestly, I wasn't even aware changing the subject came up before. I guess I better pay more attention.
I'll say this about the Tuvix situation and move on, at least on my end... it was her Kobayashi Maru. She was going to look bad no matter the outcome. With what was presented on screen in terms of options, I agree with her actions. I don't like it, but I agree with her because it saved two lives. It was a horrible choice, but she had to make a decision either way, and I respect her for making a very tough call. And while that is a very questionable command decision, it definitely is not one of her indefensible ones. She's made several of those.
Honestly, I wasn't even aware changing the subject came up before. I guess I better pay more attention.
I'll say this about the Tuvix situation and move on, at least on my end... it was her Kobayashi Maru. She was going to look bad no matter the outcome. With what was presented on screen in terms of options, I agree with her actions. I don't like it, but I agree with her because it saved two lives. It was a horrible choice, but she had to make a decision either way, and I respect her for making a very tough call. And while that is a very questionable command decision, it definitely is not one of her indefensible ones. She's made several of those.
Indeed. Had the circumstances been different, we'd be talking about how Janeway turned her back of two people who trusted her, including one of her oldest friends.
*COUGHhelpingtheBorgCOUGH!*
I am sorry for rehashing it then. Since it was my first post in this thread, and I hadn't reread through the thread (being rather long), I merely gave my opinion... but I suppose I should have figured others would have mentioned that exact same point in time as well. My bad.
Speaking of 'Doubles', but being a little off-topic, what would have happened if both B'ellanas made it back to Voyager? Would that have been a legal conundrum, or Paris' dream-come-true? Also, if the doctor could reverse that incredible (unbelievable?) bit of genetic engineering, then shouldn't Starfleet now have the technology to not only combine beings in all sorts of ways (going back to the Tuvix thing), but also separate-out qualities that are not desired (for example, how many 'half-breeds' would prefer to be one or the other? And would that fall under the 'no augmentation' laws?) I mean, if you had an old transporter pattern of someone laying around, you could theoretically de-Borg anyone completely.
Apologies, though, since that's really a whole 'nother topic and has nothing to do with how Janeway got mildly annoyed at Harry for basically starting a war with a new species (he did get a stern talking to LOL). I mean, it did all turn out okay in the end (although that ending was rather anticlimactic, to say the least), I liken it to an American ship firing a nuke at a Russian or Chinese vessel, and the captain just telling the guy who accidentally fired it, "its okay son, you made a mistake." I mean... HUH?! Also, that episode (that is fresh in my mind having just got up to it during my current binge-watch) is basically Futurama's 'Death by Snu-snu" episode. LOL
Two possibilities, depending on what the Doctor's "gene harvesting" involved.
1. The Doctor cannot harvest DNA from a living being, so human B'Elanna dies, leaving only Klingon B'Elanna.
2. The Doctor can harvest DNA safely, and he integrates the Klingon DNA back into B'Elanna, leaving Voyager with a half-Klingon B'Elanna and an all-Klingon one. Maybe Neelix's dream come true, given how fond he is of rough Klingon nookie!
Yeah. When it impacts another person, even developing person, I really struggle with saying "*shrug* sucks to be you."
Odo would have much to say about it too.
Nah, it's all good. I blame no one; this is an inevitable consequence of any long-running discussion.
Augments are genetically engineered fetuses kept on ice, why not duplicate that?
A perfect specimen dies.
Not a problem, we have 6 more of her in the deep freeze.
The technology is similar, there must have been a little over lap.
You know if all superman/augments are genetically engineered fetuses, and no one was a normal adult who was genetically engineered later to be "perfect" after being a shlub for the first 30 years.
Oh...
Voyager Demon.
Janeway and her crew offered up their DNA and all the technology of the Federation to goo.
My head canon is that they duplicated and mass produced Voyagers
ad infinitum, so thousands of Voyagers made their way to Earth over the years to the point where Starfleet just shot at Voyager on sight, and told them to go away, because they are not welcome.
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Pretty much. But we do need to keep some semblance of on topic thread discussion going forward.
It's like we only have two threads in this forum now. This one and the 10,000 page "Why Doesn't Harry Get Promoted" thread.
New title thread: "How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck was Robert Beltran's acting?"
(Not my opinion because he can bring it when given goid material, but it seems to be a prevalent one here.)
(Not my opinion because he can bring it when given goid material, but it seems to be a prevalent one here.)
Let's assume that those two were proof of concept, who were being made as adults to weed out any issues.
If those two passed the mustard, the next step was to make 200 Pulaski babies and 200 Riker babies, and pass them out to anyone who wanted to be a parent.
And then thousands more of each over the following decades.
Riker committed a genocide.
Never understood this attitude myself. A few of my favorite episodes featured Chakotay episodes, with Beltran on fine display. By the way, I believe the Janeway hatred hed begun during the winter and spring of 1995.
this would make Course: Oblivion even more poignant, with those tragic events repeating over and over for years
Yes, like in "Nemesis" Beltran had over 100 lines and the dialogue is quite complicated. It's one of my favourite Chakotay episodes.
In which episodes do you think Janeway broke the prime directive? Did other captains break the prime directive more or less often (it's not a competition, more like a benchmark)?
I think "Blink of an Eye" and "Demon" were prime directive violations because they involved pre-warp species. I'm not sure whether "The Killing Game" was because the Hirogen had a lot of technology, they just didn't have holographic tech.
Not telling prewarp culture about warp is just one threshold.
Not giving technology to anyone is another threshold.
Here's the loophole.
The Prime Directive is only a leash on Starfleet Officers.
No one else took an oath to uphold the General Order One of the Starfleet Charter.
A Starfleet Captain is a Diplomat, not a Military Governor inventing law and creating binding policy for 150 member worlds, or starting wars, or joining wars already in progress, that 150 member worlds will have to fight .
Back home, the Federation Council, Individual member worlds, the Diplomatic Corps or the Commerce Bureau, and private personalities are open to making treaties and opening trade in any way that it is legal for them to do so, with consideration to what the rest of the Federation is in parallel planning on getting to as well, with new aliens.
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It's like we only have two threads in this forum now. This one and the 10,000 page "Why Doesn't Harry Get Promoted" thread.
It's only 60-something, and probably half the replies in the forum are from this one guy who just obsesses a bit about the topic. Not naming any names here.
Oh, and we also have the 5-word story. That's got a lot more replies.
I don't think people hate Harry... they just take a perverse pleasure in watching him suffer.
"Blink" wasn't exactly a deliberate violation. Voyager just got trapped, and wound up becoming a part of the planet's mythology as a result.
There are certainly things that, were I a Starfleet admiral, I'd have sent Janeway to New Zealand for. That incident is not one of them.
QUOTE: those two passed the mustard, the next step was to make 200 Pulaski babies and 200 Riker babies, and pass them out to anyone who wanted to be a parent.
That actually was weird... one, why were all the clones apparently the same age. And two, why weren't they infants (less labor intensive to grow, more manageable at birth, and longer lifespan)?
I can actually answer the second one... they didn't want to show Riker phasering babies.
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Thanks - I think I understand it a bit better now!
In the cases of "BLINK OF AN EYE" and "DEMON", I wouldn't call those deliberate violations. In the former, they were trapped in the unusual gravity of that world. In the latter, the silver blood was not even shown as existing until most of the episode was done.
Some Prime Directive violations...
Arguably, her actions in "CARETAKER" are a Prime Directive violation, as she destroyed the array because the self destruct was damaged in the battle. But if the battle never happened, the Caretaker's self destruct would have worked and the array would have been destroyed, so same result.
Warping through the territory without permission, and after being warned, in "THE SWARM" would constitute a violation. Maybe not of the Prime Directive, but certainly any number of Starfleet regulstions, as Tuvok pointed out.
Getting involved in the Species 8472 war with the Borg... Prime Directive violation in the worst way, because it allowed the Borg to continue to kill and assimilate billions across thousands of worlds.
Giving the Hirogen hologram technology. That's a societal change on a fundamental level, for good or bad. We clearly saw some bad results years later. (Rather unbelievably so, since that's about 35,000 light years away.)
Letting the Vaadwaur loose.
I'm sure there are at least a couple others, but that's off the top of my head.
Some Prime Directive violations...
Arguably, her actions in "CARETAKER" are a Prime Directive violation, as she destroyed the array because the self destruct was damaged in the battle. But if the battle never happened, the Caretaker's self destruct would have worked and the array would have been destroyed, so same result.
Warping through the territory without permission, and after being warned, in "THE SWARM" would constitute a violation. Maybe not of the Prime Directive, but certainly any number of Starfleet regulstions, as Tuvok pointed out.
Getting involved in the Species 8472 war with the Borg... Prime Directive violation in the worst way, because it allowed the Borg to continue to kill and assimilate billions across thousands of worlds.
Giving the Hirogen hologram technology. That's a societal change on a fundamental level, for good or bad. We clearly saw some bad results years later. (Rather unbelievably so, since that's about 35,000 light years away.)
Letting the Vaadwaur loose.
I'm sure there are at least a couple others, but that's off the top of my head.
