When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?
- Thread starter Ragitsu
- Start date
"TUVIX" was a Kobayashi Maru for her... both decisions were bad outcomes. She would look like a murderer to save Tuvok and Neelix, and the same is true if she saved Tuvix.
"SCORPION" and "EQUINOX", though... agreed that she went off the rails with both.
"SCORPION" and "EQUINOX", though... agreed that she went off the rails with both.
That's not true. There were two instances where the GOAT had a pinch of insecurities was in "NIGHT" and in "LATENT IMAGE" where the EMH lost his memories. The GOAT was the BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST, Ma'am in nearly every episode of that series and it was designed that way. The only person who could dare take her down a notch was... HERSELF in "End Game". Buildings should be named after her, ships should be named after, and by Shakaree, PLANETS should be named after her. Faults??? When it comes to the GOAT that word does not exist in her realm. Read Kate Mulgrew's book "Born with Teeth" she seemed like a full participant in the aggrandization of this incredible humanoid piece of work.
The Chuck Norris of Star Trek would not be born toothless, bald, or helpless. She would enter the world fully clothed, potty-trained, with a full head of hair, a mouth full of teeth, and capable of doing the Dying Swan dance as soon as her umbilical cord was cut.
In which episode(s) did she display weakness/character flaws without going to the extremes witnessed in "Equinox"?
I would actually argue they tried not to give her any flaws, barring those extreme scenarios.
I like Janeway, but that didn't make her as believable to me. ALL the other captains have weaknesses and character flaws, and that made them more believable.
I like Janeway, but that didn't make her as believable to me. ALL the other captains have weaknesses and character flaws, and that made them more believable.
Caretaker
1. She could have traded with the Kazon.
2. She could have lied to Caretaker about looking after the Ocampa.
3. She could have gone home, not broken the Prime Directive and let the Ocampa die. The real Prime Directive issue was actually not letting the Kazon evolve by acquiring Caretaker tech. Their destiny was to wield godlike power, until something unforeseen happened.
She had other Ahab Mode moments. "Year of Hell" was one. "Scientific Method" as well.
I felt that all her decisions were predicated on a feeling of unease stemming from her decision to destroy the array. I believe she never was certain that she had made the right call. She had done what she thought was right but was never certain that, in her capacity as captain—accountable for her entire crew and the Maquis as well, she had done right by them. So to my understanding, she longed to set things right and every thing she did after that day was in some way making up for having the power to, in one stroke, change that many people’s life that fundamentally.
I have been steeped in conflict resolution and compassionate communication training for over three decades and I freely admit my “therapy-speak” biases but I saw Janeway’s confident demeanor as a reflection of her uncertainty. She had to convey her unshakable conviction that she made good decisions because if she faltered, then she would have to face the possibility that, in an instant, she had doomed her crew to quite possibly die without ever seeing their home or their loved ones again. That is to say, the illusion of infallibility was actually her weakness.
I have been steeped in conflict resolution and compassionate communication training for over three decades and I freely admit my “therapy-speak” biases but I saw Janeway’s confident demeanor as a reflection of her uncertainty. She had to convey her unshakable conviction that she made good decisions because if she faltered, then she would have to face the possibility that, in an instant, she had doomed her crew to quite possibly die without ever seeing their home or their loved ones again. That is to say, the illusion of infallibility was actually her weakness.
Isn't it even brought up in at least one Trek episode that as captain one needs to be inspiring and a morale-booster to the crew, and that a captain should save their doubts for when they're off the bridge?
I'm not saying I agree with that philosophy or that every captain we've ever seen upheld it in equal measure.
I'm not saying I agree with that philosophy or that every captain we've ever seen upheld it in equal measure.
It was nice when that popped up in the Omega Directive, but she was given the opportunity to reverse Caretaker in Eye of the Needle, stuck to her guns, and let it stand, even if there was a meddlesome cloaked Cardassian Ship there, tipping the scales.
Picard had zero pep in season one, and he'd already been a Captain for 30 years.
Morale was Neelix's domain.
Back in the 90s, I recall a contempt toward anything that wasn't TOS-style Star Trek on a ship named "Enterprise", but not specific towards Janeway, aside from a small few.
I am in S6 of my Voyager rewatch and I very much like her character arc. She began as a strict Captain and developed more into a captain/mother figure - because the crew need her to be. The writing is not perfect, but her character is well-acted. It would be interesting to see if a male captain would become more of a father figure if presented with the same situation.
My biggest complaint against VOY (and ENT for that matter) is the lack of consequences. For God's sake, Janeway killed Tuvix and Archer killed Tucker v2 and never again was a word spoken of it. That irritates me.
I am in S6 of my Voyager rewatch and I very much like her character arc. She began as a strict Captain and developed more into a captain/mother figure - because the crew need her to be. The writing is not perfect, but her character is well-acted. It would be interesting to see if a male captain would become more of a father figure if presented with the same situation.
My biggest complaint against VOY (and ENT for that matter) is the lack of consequences. For God's sake, Janeway killed Tuvix and Archer killed Tucker v2 and never again was a word spoken of it. That irritates me.
Being a low ranking newbie myself I wanted to say hi. Im quite enjoying reading some of the posts. Good, interesting,wrong and the bonkers. But im staying away from anything too controversial for now.
Before joining I thought of myself as a trekkie. (Well a closet trekkie) . I think I shouldve started younger .
Anyway your janeway point was interesting although I think the character would have been written differently for a man.
And perhaps archer and janeway got away with murder .literally because :-
Archer had no prime directive .
7 million us citizens had been vaporized, nobody cared.
And Janeway chose the lesser of two evils by saving 2 crew members
Or the delta quadrant is like vegas what happens there....stays there.
Just a thought..
Before joining I thought of myself as a trekkie. (Well a closet trekkie) . I think I shouldve started younger .
Anyway your janeway point was interesting although I think the character would have been written differently for a man.
And perhaps archer and janeway got away with murder .literally because :-
Archer had no prime directive .
7 million us citizens had been vaporized, nobody cared.
And Janeway chose the lesser of two evils by saving 2 crew members
Or the delta quadrant is like vegas what happens there....stays there.
Just a thought..
Would you say that this overcompensation is frequently expressed by real-world authorities?
To perhaps answer far too earnestly, I have never met anyone who wasn’t nursing a wound of some sort so protective behavior such as overcompensation is to be expected. Interacting with others presses on less of my own metaphorical bruises if I maintain a belief that every harsh word hides a vulnerability. Even if someday I am proven wrong in that assumption, treating everyone with compassion helps me live the life I want.
4. She could've activated the displacement wave, and sent Voyager AND the Caretaker's Array back to Federation Space. It could be argued, "Well, what if the displacement wave COULDN'T send the Array home?" Well, you leave someone on board to autodestruct the fucker in case that did happen.
5. They could have used the displacement wave on the Kazon.
Send them out of the galaxy completely, maybe? To its edge, anyway.
