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When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

That is actually one thing that none of the shows have been clear on... if you eat or drink on the holodeck, does whatever you consume simply disappear from inside your stomach as soon as you leave the holodeck?

'Disappearing Dung' feels like it could be an episode...
 
Neelix did it on his own... it was supposed to be the captain's private dining room. Janeway gave approval after he did it, though... this was after Kes volunteered her lung to him. (This was all in "PHAGE".)

Mm hm: either Janeway proposed the idea or she gave the go-ahead after it was put into practice. I believe that we have established her original sin (at least during her career as a Starfleet Captain, anyhow).
 
As long as you weren't a Kazon. Because why should the Kazon be able to replicate themselves a nice cold glass of water?

It's clearly illegal and may have created thousands of situations as detrimental as giving the Hirogen holodeck tech, but Tuvok justified their choices by saying that they would have died if they couldn't have done illegal shit whenever it made their life style a little less hard.

Tuvok owes Ransom an apology.
 
Tuvok and Chakotay owe Ransom an apology for not relieving Janeway until she was rational.

Not an anti-Janeway shot per se... I think every Trek captain lost their marbles a few times.

Rational about what?


Really, if they wanted to have a cook onboard, they should just have the replicators crash. After all, if they're 70k light years from home and the tech is not readily available in the Delta Quadrant, it makes sense. And if/when they want to end that storyline, they just trade for new replicators (and torpedoes for that matter).

What are you talking about?
 
Rational about what?

Rational about not sacrificing a member of Ransom's crew to the subspace creatures. She went full Captain Ahab on Ransom, and while his actions did warrant going after him, she became full blown obsessive.

She relieved her XO because he stopped her from killing another Starfleet officer. She threatened the same to Tuvok when he saw she became unhinged when she made the deal with those lifeforms.

And right when he was giving himself up... she made a course correct and said 'he may have forgotten he was a Starfleet captain for a while, but he remembers now', or words to that effect.

Truthfully, that comes across as schizophrenic or bipolar. The writers have done that with some of her decisions across the seasons, but never in this whiplash way within the same episode.

"EQUINOX, PART II" is definitely not one of Janeway's good episodes.
 
Truthfully, that comes across as schizophrenic or bipolar. The writers have done that with some of her decisions across the seasons, but never in this whiplash way within the same episode.

The only similar flip-flop I've seen is Picard in "Homeward", where early on he's upset that Nikolai saved the Boraalans, but later on he says that's he's pleased that they did, and "our plan for them worked out well". In his defense, though, I think the latter Picard is more the real one.
 
Oh, don't get me wrong. Janeway was out of line, while Picard was merely reacting to a situation someone else created. I was just discussing one-episode flip-flops.

Also, if Janeway had just showed some compassion when she found out what the Eauinix crew were doing (not condoning it, but understanding that desperate people can make bad choices), instead of playing the cold, merciless b:censored: role to the hilt, the situation might have come to a less awful end.
 
Oh, don't get me wrong. Janeway was out of line, while Picard was merely reacting to a situation someone else created. I was just discussing one-episode flip-flops.

Also, if Janeway had just showed some compassion when she found out what the Eauinix crew were doing (not condoning it, but understanding that desperate people can make bad choices), instead of playing the cold, merciless b:censored: role to the hilt, the situation might have come to a less awful end.

Janeway didn't get a chance to be understanding.

The exact moment they were outed, the Equinox crew screwed over Voyager and ran.

MEANWHILE...

The exact moment the Borg were outed in Scorpion as the instigators of the war, Seven said "Not now, we are fighting for our lives you idiot." and then later Janeway rewarded Seven, by screwing and kidnapping the poor lady.
 
That is actually one thing that none of the shows have been clear on... if you eat or drink on the holodeck, does whatever you consume simply disappear from inside your stomach as soon as you leave the holodeck?

What we have seen is contradictory. Books and EMH's arms, disappearing the moment they cross the door threshold. Wesley in the corridor, dripping with water he fell in on the holodeck. That holodeck criminal character from The Big Goodbye that only started to disappear after standing in the corridor for 30 seconds or so. So apparently, it depends upon the situation.

The only similar flip-flop I've seen is Picard in "Homeward", where early on he's upset that Nikolai saved the Boraalans, but later on he says that's he's pleased that they did, and "our plan for them worked out well". In his defense, though, I think the latter Picard is more the real one.

I've explained that one in my head canon as Picard secretly being glad that his hand was forced to save the Boraalans, even if he was too uptight to violate the PD himself in that situation. But that's only a rationalisation. The entire episode feels like Picard's refusal to rescue them had to be shoehorned in to create the conflict and they then forgot to edit those 'glad it worked out' lines out in the rewrite. In my view, that episode isn't a credit to the Picard character, to put it mildly.
 
"Homeward": when you want to gin up sufficient drama, have a key player abandon a portion of their character development.
 
That is actually one thing that none of the shows have been clear on... if you eat or drink on the holodeck, does whatever you consume simply disappear from inside your stomach as soon as you leave the holodeck?
I think it's safe to say that anything intended for immediate consumption is swapped out with replicated food or drink on an as-needed basis, while the stuff on the shelf is probably holographic. You wouldn't want to have a holodeck picnic than suddenly find yourself called to the bridge to fight the Romulans on an empty stomach.

Some items like snow or rainfall may include replicated water and snow in the immediate vicinity of the person it lands on to give a realistic taste, texture, and wetness/melting. Hence the replicated snowballs leaving the holodeck, or Wesley's dripping clothes.

Ships like Voyager with replicator rationing would obviously be an exception to this, so if you were having a holodeck picnic, Neelix would probably have to pack a lunch for you and you'd carry it aboard the holodeck.
Also, if Janeway had just showed some compassion when she found out what the Eauinix crew were doing (not condoning it, but understanding that desperate people can make bad choices), instead of playing the cold, merciless b:censored: role to the hilt, the situation might have come to a less awful end.
Bad choices? Yeah, I'd say mass murder, torture (of the aliens and 7-of-9), reprogramming the EMH to be a killer, stealing vital parts from Voyager that left them vulnerable, and exploitation of an alien species as fuel, one that had shown no prior aggression towards you, and causing that alien species to attack an allied ship and kill members of the Voyager crew, just qualifies as some run-of-the-mill "bad choices" that deserve compassion.

Then there's the fact that they kept it a secret (compassion usually follows admitting what you've done) and intended to betray Voyager and continue to do it when presented with the opportunity to join up with a larger, safer, more well-equipped ship, meaning it wasn't just about personal safety any more, they weren't willing to make the sacrifice of a longer journey home like the Voyager crew had when they saw an opportunity to get home faster by murdering more aliens.

Janeway showed Ransom compassion when he owned up to his crimes and finally did the right thing in the end. She showed compassion by giving the survivors a chance to redeem themselves as crewmembers instead of confining them to quarters for the rest of the journey. Nothing that happened before that was worthy of compassion.

Yeah, she crossed the line by potentially exposing Lessing to an alien attack, though it's deliberately left up in the air if she was bluffing and would have reestablished shields at the last moment had Chakotay not intervened. But that's not even remotely on the same playing field as Captain Ransom's crimes.
 
Then there was...whatever she was doing during the orbital chase until Chakotay's shout snapped her out of her tunnel vision.
 
Bad choices? Yeah, I'd say mass murder, torture (of the aliens and 7-of-9), reprogramming the EMH to be a killer, stealing vital parts from Voyager that left them vulnerable, and exploitation of an alien species as fuel, one that had shown no prior aggression towards you, and causing that alien species to attack an allied ship and kill members of the Voyager crew, just qualifies as some run-of-the-mill "bad choices" that deserve compassion.
I never said it did. However, consider the following...
RANSOM: It's easy to cling to principles when you're standing on a vessel with its bulkheads intact, manned by a crew that's not starving.
JANEWAY: It's never easy. But if we turn our backs on our principles, we stop being human. I'm putting an end to your experiments and you are hereby relieved of your command. You and your crew will be confined to quarters.
RANSOM: Please, show them leniency. They were only following my orders.
JANEWAY: Their mistake.


Janeway had basically declared her intention to punish the entire surviving crew, for actions committed in utter desperation. Maybe it didn't matter, and the Equinox's crew would have escaped and fled no matter what... but maybe not.
 
I never said it did. However, consider the following...
RANSOM: It's easy to cling to principles when you're standing on a vessel with its bulkheads intact, manned by a crew that's not starving.
JANEWAY: It's never easy. But if we turn our backs on our principles, we stop being human. I'm putting an end to your experiments and you are hereby relieved of your command. You and your crew will be confined to quarters.
RANSOM: Please, show them leniency. They were only following my orders.
JANEWAY: Their mistake.


Janeway had basically declared her intention to punish the entire surviving crew, for actions committed in utter desperation. Maybe it didn't matter, and the Equinox's crew would have escaped and fled no matter what... but maybe not.
Because "I was just following orders" has been the refrain of every war criminal throughout history, and has never been considered a legitimate excuse for participating in illegal activities such as mass murder. The crew's responsibility at that point was to relieve the captain and any other participating command staff from duty. Instead they actively joined in on the killing. They were all complicit.
 
Yes. Under the circumstances, the morally correct thing for the Equinox's crew to do... was die. But not everyone is capable of coldly embracing their own destruction because it's "doing the right thing".
 
Are you saying you feel Equinox would have been destroyed without Ransom's leadership, would have been destroyed if it hadn't intentionally used the aliens for a power source, or both?
 
The latter. Their actions were those of a starving crew on a battered, broken ship that had 50 percent of the crew dead, and 50 percent in the advanced stages of starvation. Like Archer turning pirate and making off with another ship's warp coil, or the Aldeans in TNG performing the reprehensible act of stealing children, or the Donner Party's eating each other... they committed appalling actions out of sheer desperation and will to survive. I'm not saying it was right, just that I can understand why they did it.
 
That is actually one thing that none of the shows have been clear on... if you eat or drink on the holodeck, does whatever you consume simply disappear from inside your stomach as soon as you leave the holodeck?

'Disappearing Dung' feels like it could be an episode...

It's certainly possible. Wasn't Torres made holographically pregnant in The Killing Game?
 
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