When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. Holly-deck One

    Holly-deck One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    When it aired, I was mad that DS9 only got 3 months by itself on tv. (The first 10 episodes of season 3, then VOYAGER premiered.)

    Looking back, this might have been a blessing in disguise, because with all the attention on VOYAGER, it allowed DS9 a bit more free reign to be the awesome show it was. Ira Steven Behr was able to win more fights against the suits for DS9 than if, say, Brannon Braga would make for VOYAGER.
     
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  2. Ray Hardgrit

    Ray Hardgrit Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think Ira Steven Behr's DS9 really starts around the same time that Voyager does, as that's when Michael Piller left to produce the other series, putting him in the captain's chair
     
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  3. Holly-deck One

    Holly-deck One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Very true. Piller was already grooming Behr for the job in season 2, and Behr officially became an 'Executive Producer' (onscreen credit) for "THE DIE IS CAST". Before that, he was credited as 'Co-Executive Producer'. (He was pretty much the head guy in season 3 already because, like you said, Piller was over at VOYAGER's writing room. The screen credit just made it official.)
     
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  4. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I am truly sorry for Italia's lack of vision in those days, but I am optimistic times has changed for that wonderful land and has grown to accept black people in lead roles when offered in their airwaves.

    DS9 sold out with the war, 1st with the Klingons and then transitioning with the greatest villains in all of Star Trek history the infallible Dominion. As for the series finale of Voyager, I thought it was as exclusive as the one done for ENT, very insulting for the viewers who had investments in those ensemble characters. Probably spoiled by what was done in "All Good Things..." where it gave every character from TNG cast a shining moment which was such a relief from a final season which was dreadful IMO. "End Game" was the final time I would see these characters and they were meaningless in the overall story; this was the GOAT's swan song and I found it laughable she could only get stumped by someone ever greater than her greatness... herself.
     
  5. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    more than in the past for sure, but on these themes we’re steadily 10 to 20 years behind the US, usually.
     
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Had dinner with two women the other night. Extended family. The topic of Star Trek was brought up, not by me... And from out of no where these two women, early thirties and mid 40s, just started crowing about the awesomeness of Kathryn Janeway.

    All I said was "but she killed Tuvix."

    Blank stares.

    No Idea what I was talking about.
     
  7. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A less than die-hard fan could easily have missed Tuvix (it's just a single episode after all, never referenced again), or simply not remember at all. On this board we have the benefit of endless regurgitation to help us remember :)

    On the other hand, Janeway's 'awesomeness' is present in many episodes so even a more casual fan would pick that up.
     
  8. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Tuvix wasn't even Janeway's worst mistake, IMO. Given that she was trying to save two other lives, it was at least understandable, if not justified.
     
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  9. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    What do you consider her worst mistake, then? (I know you have problems with a number of her actions, but which one is the very worst to you?)
     
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It was sexism.

    As women they identify with women more and appreciate seeing someone like them in a position of authority. Who Janeway is as a person, her accomplishments and failures are irrelevant.

    One of them was a huge nerd, but the other lady was just a civilian.

    Mansplaining that the civilian was likely sexist seemed like a bad idea.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2022
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  11. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A lot of it is like comparing apples and oranges. But I'll give you some highlights.
    Most damaging: Aiding the Borg ("Scorpion"). Because Janeway stopped 8472 from stomping the Borg out of existence, they were able to resume their assimilation work.
    Most hypocritical: In her efforts to take down Capt. Ransom for his violation of Starfleet ideals, Janeway flagrantly violated them herself.
    Worst PD or TPD violation: Janeway goes back in time and wipes out decades of history in "Endgame"... basically to save three lives.

    And because it's me...
    Least justified: Not promoting Harry Kim. The other three can at least be defended, but there is literally no rational reason for this one.
     
  12. Holly-deck One

    Holly-deck One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I would have to agree with the above.

    I would also add "THE SWARM". Tuvok was even surprised at Janeway for deciding to simply cross the territory of a sovereign power. Granted, they were bullies and they did shoot Tom and B'Elanna in the shuttle, but she didn't even try to negotiate for passage.

    Starfleet would definitely raise eyebrows at that decision.
     
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  13. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, there were others. Starting with her initial action: destroying the Caretaker array to save the Ocampa from the Kazon... then flying off in Voyager, leaving the Ocampa at the Kazon's mercy. They might not have had Caretaker tech, but they still had ships and guns, right?
     
  14. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You'd think so, but Ted freaking Cruz says he's a fan...

    To be fair, can you blame some one for something their alternate future selves do?
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm sure he'll say anything that he thinks might score him more votes.
     
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  16. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's an interesting demo you think he's courting.
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Kazon owned Ocampa.

    It was their planet.

    The Ocampa should have been paying rent, or fighting a revolutionary war.

    But they were inside a box inside a force field, underground, with only 5 years of light, water and food. In 5 years and three days, they were going to start eating each other. In 5 years and 10 days, 20 million Ocampa are going to rise to the surface, which a desert without water or rain, and they are going to try and take everything that the 40 Kazon holding that planet, has to eat and drink, and then they are going to eat the Kazon. In 5 years and 20 days the Ocampa are dead. died out. Dehydration.... Unless... They get a power source, maybe a warp core, from a Kazon City Ship, and Hook it up to the underground City they just fled from.

    The Ocampa if they number in the millions, are vermin who will over run what ever life lives on Ocampa and eat it, and if they get ships, they will occupy their neighbours and build an empire pushing the Kazon out of Kazon space.

    The Prime Directive was supposed to protect the Delta Quadrant from the Ocampa, but Janeway got that situation totally upside down when she was trying to decide how immoral it was going to be to blow up the Array.
     
  18. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    By the way...what significant character development did Janeway experience? Offhand, all I can think of is her eventual acceptance of the Emergency Medical Hologram as an actual lifeform.
     
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  19. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sadly, you have the right of it. But she was a symptom of a greater issue. Consider the amounts of development, character by character.
    Janeway: Negligible.
    Chakotay: Negligible.
    Tuvok: Negligible.
    Torres: Some, but there was a lot of "running in place", a lot of her plotlines were variations on a theme.
    Paris: Some. He did settle down a bit.
    Harry: Negligible. Added penalty points because he was so eminently developable, due to age and inexperience.
    Kes: Limited, and added penalty points because she was even more developable than Harry.
    Neelix: Negligible, until the end.
    Seven: Considerable.
    EMH: Considerable.
     
  20. Holly-deck One

    Holly-deck One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Pretty much agreed on all counts, except Tuvok actually should be developed the least, simply by virtue of already being nearly 100 years old when the series premiered. A lot of growth can and should occur for someone like Kim, who was inexperienced, 22, and would gave nowhere near the lifespan of a Vulcan.