By Inferno's Light I think. Founder Bashir in the runabout.
What would you like to see change for season 2?
- Thread starter eschaton
- Start date
Rosario Dawson recast as Burnham
They're never going to please everyone, but here is what would please me:
I'll start with the obvious, a more balanced cast between male and female. I do understand what they are doing and why. I re-watched the cage last night and I've got to admit I did find it offensive how little dialog Number One got, not that it wasn't good for it's time, but there was so much more that could have been done with her character, and it was very much a boys club.
But that said, I don't think that an all female cast is sustainable going forward. At least half the audience for Trek is male and the large majority straight, so I think that needs to be reflected a little more in the cast if they hope to retain and grow their viewership. On the subject of cast diversity there really should be some Asian faces in the crew and I don't recall seeing any, other than Georgiou who isn't regular crew (and no I'm not Asian). Even putting aside the believability factor when you consider the makeup of Earth's population, from a business perspective, as a streaming show it would be in their interests to take a more worldview in casting.
Personal preference, SMG is fine as the lead. Though I would prefer if they could move quickly to make her the captain. I find it difficult to relate to the Junior Officer Know-it-all and I guess I've been conditioned to Trek revolving around the Captain. I would like to see them dial her down a little bit, to me she comes across as overpowered. Cut back on the Vulcan Superpowers. Telepathy over extreme distances has been used in past Trek but it's never been presented as something that can be turned on at will (other than one Betazoid), so I think that's something that should be used sparingly. Vulcan martial arts - tone it down. When Kirk was in a fight I always got the feeling he was in over his head, there was a sense of vulnerability there and that's something I need to see in a character if I'm to feel an attachment to them. I never see that Vulnerability in Burnham. I get it that they are trying to make her seem powerful and capable of looking after herself, but real power isn't something that we exercise with our fists. I would prefer if her power comes from her rank, her accomplishments, and her intellect.
I'd like a bigger universe. They made the universe seem very small and cluttered. Partly that was the spore drive. You never got the feeling of a small ship moving through the vastness of space.
I'd like more character development and more characters. I want to get the feeling that there is an actual crew there instead what may as well be a ship full of manikins.
I'd like a more thoughtful show. A little less action and a little more time to think. Not just time for me to think, but time for the crew to think.
More exploration. More alien worlds. More wonders. Take full advantage of the HDTV or 4K that we now enjoy, and dazzle us with things beyond our imagination. I'd like Discovery to live up to it's name.
And definitely fewer speeches, and cut the narration completely - she doesn't have the voice for it, not many people do.
I'll start with the obvious, a more balanced cast between male and female. I do understand what they are doing and why. I re-watched the cage last night and I've got to admit I did find it offensive how little dialog Number One got, not that it wasn't good for it's time, but there was so much more that could have been done with her character, and it was very much a boys club.
But that said, I don't think that an all female cast is sustainable going forward. At least half the audience for Trek is male and the large majority straight, so I think that needs to be reflected a little more in the cast if they hope to retain and grow their viewership. On the subject of cast diversity there really should be some Asian faces in the crew and I don't recall seeing any, other than Georgiou who isn't regular crew (and no I'm not Asian). Even putting aside the believability factor when you consider the makeup of Earth's population, from a business perspective, as a streaming show it would be in their interests to take a more worldview in casting.
Personal preference, SMG is fine as the lead. Though I would prefer if they could move quickly to make her the captain. I find it difficult to relate to the Junior Officer Know-it-all and I guess I've been conditioned to Trek revolving around the Captain. I would like to see them dial her down a little bit, to me she comes across as overpowered. Cut back on the Vulcan Superpowers. Telepathy over extreme distances has been used in past Trek but it's never been presented as something that can be turned on at will (other than one Betazoid), so I think that's something that should be used sparingly. Vulcan martial arts - tone it down. When Kirk was in a fight I always got the feeling he was in over his head, there was a sense of vulnerability there and that's something I need to see in a character if I'm to feel an attachment to them. I never see that Vulnerability in Burnham. I get it that they are trying to make her seem powerful and capable of looking after herself, but real power isn't something that we exercise with our fists. I would prefer if her power comes from her rank, her accomplishments, and her intellect.
I'd like a bigger universe. They made the universe seem very small and cluttered. Partly that was the spore drive. You never got the feeling of a small ship moving through the vastness of space.
I'd like more character development and more characters. I want to get the feeling that there is an actual crew there instead what may as well be a ship full of manikins.
I'd like a more thoughtful show. A little less action and a little more time to think. Not just time for me to think, but time for the crew to think.
More exploration. More alien worlds. More wonders. Take full advantage of the HDTV or 4K that we now enjoy, and dazzle us with things beyond our imagination. I'd like Discovery to live up to it's name.
And definitely fewer speeches, and cut the narration completely - she doesn't have the voice for it, not many people do.
Good that they don't have one then.
Surviving regular cast for season 2:
Tilly
Burnham
vs.
Saru
Tyler
Stamets
Sarek (?)
Plus a new Captain of unknown gender. At worst, it'll be 50/50.
Definitely. The reason I love Voyager's opening so much is because both the visuals and the music evoke the sense of exploration and that the crew is on a grand adventure in a huge and fascinating universe.
Those silly animations in Disco... evoke nothing but revulsion in me. The red reminds me of blood, and the yellow reminds me of... other bodily secretions. The images themselves seem to be saying, "Here's a communicator, here's this, here's that, see how we're ticking the boxes to make this appear to be real Star Trek." Not sure where the flower comes into it.
Since there are at least two of us who would prefer seeing some stars in the opening of a show purporting to be part of the Star Trek franchise (and I daresay we're not the only two people who think this), the word "we" is not inappropriate.
I don't understand how anyone could find grand orchestral music and alien planets and starfields "boring" (silly me, I'd thought most ST fans would be interested in space stuff). I'll agree that DS9's intro drags on way too long. But Voyager? I watch it, and sometimes hum along with the music.
They kinda overshot the TNG-era in some ways, which is why it's impossible for me to believe that this is a pre-TOS series.
The only way it's tolerable at all is to consider it a sequel to Enterprise, which is also not believable to me as a prequel to TOS. Why not just have Burnham show up in the next nuTrek movie and be done with it? Stick both series and that batch of movies in their own little universe so they can just be ignored by those of us who aren't into them?
What was up with that "This is Starfleet" blathering at the end of the final episode? Wasn't she there to get reinstated, and the others got promoted? Do newly-reinstated officers usually make long-winded speeches?
Agreed. Just because she can fight, that doesn't mean she's someone who should captain a starship.
I didn't see two-thirds of the episodes. Were there any in which the crew questioned the ethics of what they were doing, or what they needed to do, beyond "should we or should we not go to war with the Klingons" (which was dispensed with pretty fast)?
One thing David Gerrold said in one of his Star Trek books back in the '70s was that Star Trek episodes should be about "Kirk makes a decision." Well, obviously not all of them should be, but some of the best ones are those that involve Kirk making some difficult decision, or a variation of "just because I can, does that mean I should"?.
I interpreted that scene as interspersing two different scenes which happened in that room - the "everyone get's a medal" ceremony and a later lecture that Burnham was giving. Either way it was ridiculous, because even if it made sense thematically for Burnham to give the speech, due to how the chain of command works, Saru should have been up there.
It may well have been that one half of the scene or the other was filmed first, and they later inserted the other half. It would help explain why it was so jarring.
That's one of the reasons I think they fucked up Burnham's personal arc in a major fashion. While her depth of characterization in Act 1 left something to be desired, the arc worked, basically coming full circle by destroying the Ship of the Dead, killing Kol, and getting back her Georgiou's badge. But Act 2 shows her as a character who has essentially not grown - continuing to make impulsive decisions based upon emotional connections (most notably saving MU Georgiou from death because of guilt about the death of PU Georgiou). This continues right up through climax of the last episode, where she presumes there is goodness in the heart of MU Georgiou. Somehow, MU Georgiou doesn't kill her (even though she was willing to kill Burnham just a few episodes ago) but this "win" doesn't seem earned, it seems random.
I guess the problem I have is I thought the arc was going to be about Burnham learning to deal with the conflict between the coldily logical way she was raised and her actual nature, which is further towards the impulsive and emotional side than the norm for a human (perhaps because she was never taught properly how to actually deal with her emotions). Instead, they decided at the last minute it was about learning her push for an aggressive confrontation with the Klingons in the first episode was the wrong choice, as it's not the "Starfleet way." Never mind the opening two-parter drove home that the Klingons thought Federation attempts at diplomacy were subterfuge, and if anything seemed to imply if Georgiou listened to Burnham and fired first, the war might have been avoided.
Exactly!
* *
As for this:
Tyler is gone and Sarek is not a regular. So by your list it would be even, but you're leaving out some of the bridge crew (I can think of two females just off of the bat).
I don't care about the makeup of the crew as long as the characters are well-written. In spite of flaws, I'm sticking with the show because even though her growth has been negligible and she acts like she was raised on Earth, not Vulcan, I still like Burnham.
Do we even know what gender Saru is? Or if his species has gender?
Anyway my point was about human male representation. Saru and Sarek are not human and Tyler is a Klingon in a human meat suit. That leaves only Stamets, and though he is an excellent character I don't think he is enough to balance the cast.
I realize this is a subject that is best avoided in this forum so I will speak no more of it. Let the market decide.
Anyway my point was about human male representation. Saru and Sarek are not human and Tyler is a Klingon in a human meat suit. That leaves only Stamets, and though he is an excellent character I don't think he is enough to balance the cast.
I realize this is a subject that is best avoided in this forum so I will speak no more of it. Let the market decide.
Agreed. It makes no sense for Burnham to be making a speech, period.
BTW, your "everyone gets a medal" phrase reminds me of Oprah: "You get a medal, and you get a medal, and you get a medal, and EVERYONE gets a medal!"
Is there a single episode in fifty-one years of Star Trek that you can honestly describe as "hard science fiction"?
The characters, the writers, the tone, the uniforms, the set.
I don't think he is - the Kurtzman interview stated they have plans for him next year.
They're still men. They may be in makeup or have a backstory about being in makeup, but they're men nonetheless. Just as much as L'Rell is a female character. You can't claim it's an "all female cast" just cos some of the men are playing fictional aliens.
And there are also two males with similar exposure; none of them are much more than the Conn ensign of the week, so I left them out. If we include them, I'd argue they cancel each other out.
Uniforms. Conceptually, they're ok, but I'm not a fan of the assymetrical collar and offset zipper. And they're not flattering for all body types.
And the sneakers. Not a big fan of the sneakers.
Otherwise, it's all good.
And the sneakers. Not a big fan of the sneakers.
Otherwise, it's all good.
Congrats STD, you did to Klingons what was previously done to The Borg and Q. So please no more Klingons.
So no more Klingons in season 2, no more cliffhangers (except for season finale, ONLY if season 3 is confirmed), definitely more planets.
Please no Enterprise (anymore), please do not recast anyone from previous shows. Just let STD live and succeed (or fail) on it's own.
So no more Klingons in season 2, no more cliffhangers (except for season finale, ONLY if season 3 is confirmed), definitely more planets.
Please no Enterprise (anymore), please do not recast anyone from previous shows. Just let STD live and succeed (or fail) on it's own.
Here is my list
1 Try and be inspired by "Buffy" and not "Game of Thrones" Buffy had a strong female lead and embraced feminism but they simply did it much better. They could go very dark yet also had a very strong sense of humor to the show. You do need a asshole on the show like Buffy had "Spike" and even "Cordillia before him. Stamets can be that character somewhat but I still think you need someone who is even more of jerk but also someone you kind of care about. My choice would be Mudd but you have other options as well. For the love of God I don't want more TNG were everyone loves each other all the time. That gimmick worked once for that show and frankly they got lucky or maybe it's something on;y PIllar could pull off but it simply not something to keep trying to recreate.
2 I like the faith vs science angle if for no other reason than it's not more Trump stuff. He is played out as a villian in terms of being a bigot. It's been overused on tv. Only way to make it feel fresh anymore is if you do the Russian puppet angle which I don't think anyone has done as of yet but even then I just don't see how that would fit in the new seasons theme.
I do hope they don't go with the God like alien thing and they ground it more in reality. Also at least 2 of your main characters should have some kind of faith to keep things from being preachy. Part of me would like it be Burnham because of her Vulcan background and she was raised by Sarek who believes in a a Katra since he went and shamed Kirk about not saving Spock's Katra in Trek 3 but that might feel to Siskoy. Maybe Culber was realigious and I think they have said wer haven't seen the last of that character. Maybe someone on bridge might realigious which would give them something to do other than push buttons on the bridge.
3 Stop pretending the show is a canon show.. It creates fan fights over something that doesn't seem to even be all that important to the show because they seem to go out of the way to create continuity flaws. Why hold onto something the writers only barely at most care about? You have more options available to you when you have a future that can change in unexpected and big ways if you want. The Kelvin Universe had the right idea. Keep the core idea of the show being a Star Trek show yet also give your writers more of a blank slate on what you can do with all the Trek toys and aliens you can play with.
4 When Georgiou comes back have Captain Killy with her. No reason she couldn't have escaped her ship before it got destroyed. I wouldn't make her the main villian but she/they could play a important role in any main villians plans. KIngpen didn't have much to do with "Daredevil" in season 2 but he did help Frank Castle escape from prision while setting something up for him to do in a later season.
Jason
1 Try and be inspired by "Buffy" and not "Game of Thrones" Buffy had a strong female lead and embraced feminism but they simply did it much better. They could go very dark yet also had a very strong sense of humor to the show. You do need a asshole on the show like Buffy had "Spike" and even "Cordillia before him. Stamets can be that character somewhat but I still think you need someone who is even more of jerk but also someone you kind of care about. My choice would be Mudd but you have other options as well. For the love of God I don't want more TNG were everyone loves each other all the time. That gimmick worked once for that show and frankly they got lucky or maybe it's something on;y PIllar could pull off but it simply not something to keep trying to recreate.
2 I like the faith vs science angle if for no other reason than it's not more Trump stuff. He is played out as a villian in terms of being a bigot. It's been overused on tv. Only way to make it feel fresh anymore is if you do the Russian puppet angle which I don't think anyone has done as of yet but even then I just don't see how that would fit in the new seasons theme.
I do hope they don't go with the God like alien thing and they ground it more in reality. Also at least 2 of your main characters should have some kind of faith to keep things from being preachy. Part of me would like it be Burnham because of her Vulcan background and she was raised by Sarek who believes in a a Katra since he went and shamed Kirk about not saving Spock's Katra in Trek 3 but that might feel to Siskoy. Maybe Culber was realigious and I think they have said wer haven't seen the last of that character. Maybe someone on bridge might realigious which would give them something to do other than push buttons on the bridge.
3 Stop pretending the show is a canon show.. It creates fan fights over something that doesn't seem to even be all that important to the show because they seem to go out of the way to create continuity flaws. Why hold onto something the writers only barely at most care about? You have more options available to you when you have a future that can change in unexpected and big ways if you want. The Kelvin Universe had the right idea. Keep the core idea of the show being a Star Trek show yet also give your writers more of a blank slate on what you can do with all the Trek toys and aliens you can play with.
4 When Georgiou comes back have Captain Killy with her. No reason she couldn't have escaped her ship before it got destroyed. I wouldn't make her the main villian but she/they could play a important role in any main villians plans. KIngpen didn't have much to do with "Daredevil" in season 2 but he did help Frank Castle escape from prision while setting something up for him to do in a later season.
Jason
It is a canon show, because it's produced by CBS. No amount of fan blubbering will change that.
Again, "Canon" = the body of work, defined by the IP owner. CBS says this is the reality of Trek, therefore it is.
You might be right. I think the better word is "Shared Universe" with the the other shows. It doesn't really fit well with the one show it's close to in "TOS" and I think at some point when a shared universe is so old that you can't really use the already established actors playing their familiar characters it begins to feel pointless to hold onto the connections unless you put you show in a very isolated situation such as the future or maybe have a ship trapped in a alternate universe etc.
Jason
It's not "blubbering". It's contempt and boredom. It may be legally canon, but it does not, and will never, look or feel like canon. YKMV.
A show has failed for me if I haven't seen all the episodes and don't care that I haven't seen all the episodes.
I'd put fleshing out the supporting cast among my most important wishes for season 2. Showing more informal interactions between our characters than what we've got now would make this crew feel much more like the close-knit group Saru described before they returned back from the MU. Even if they remain supporting characters, making the bridge crew feel like real people instead of NPCs is a must in my opinion. OK, they exist in certain roles on the bridge, but why should they remain simple backdrops when they're used in another setting? Why can't they have some dialogue as well?
I mean, we were shown the bridge crew eating together with Tilly, for example (in the 'everybody accepts Tyler back' scene), so it's not like they don't already know each other. The galley could be used in future seasons as a prime setting for the bridge crew interacting with the main cast and each other. Some light banter between colleagues, maybe some breakfast pranks the bridge crew play on each other? It's not like there's no material at all they could use as a starting point to develop how these people interact with each other... did Burnham and Detmer ever talk about what happened on the Shenzhou, for example?
I mean, we were shown the bridge crew eating together with Tilly, for example (in the 'everybody accepts Tyler back' scene), so it's not like they don't already know each other. The galley could be used in future seasons as a prime setting for the bridge crew interacting with the main cast and each other. Some light banter between colleagues, maybe some breakfast pranks the bridge crew play on each other? It's not like there's no material at all they could use as a starting point to develop how these people interact with each other... did Burnham and Detmer ever talk about what happened on the Shenzhou, for example?
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