You_Guyz has a lot more patience than Anwar than I do, thats for sure. Much kudos for that, btw. I enjoy reading your well reasoned, logical points, and then having my mind completely blown when he completely fails to see the point.
I do suggest picking a time in the future - say, 2 more posts, or 10, or however many - before giving up and realising we're never going to get through to him. Otherwise we might be here until 2110.
That or we could ignore him and continue discussing what we'd like to see, without his endless circular arguments. Let's see, where was the last constructive comment to the first post I made...?
This is a good idea, but the only time they honestly explored the idea, when The Doctor wanted to leave in "Virtuoso," they ruined it. They basically made Janeway out to be an annoying, overbearing dictator. She made The Doctor feel awful for even wanting to leave. When he finally did decide, in fact, to leave, she almost wouldn't allow him to because Voyager needed a doctor.
That always struck me as cruel on Janeway's part. She was basically saying that the state, her, had the right to override individual liberties for the common good. Then, when The Doctor decided to return to Voyager, she further derided him for his decision, saying that it insulted many people.
I've always thought this myself, about the uniforms. Why did the Maquis who never were in Starfleet, or who had left the service, have to wear uniforms - sometimes even against their will, like with the slackers Tuvok whips into shape? Neelix, Kes, and Seven were never required to wear them. In fact, I remember once when Neelix expressed interest in wearing one and Tuvok acted like it would be simply inappropriate and unacceptable.
I don't remember Virtuoso that well, yet Janeway's behavior doesn't surprise me at all. She became wildly inconsistant during the later seasons. Its the one main thing I would have liked to change - the obsessive Captain hell-bent on getting her crew home was just dull after a while (if it was ever exciting to begin with).
I do distinctly remember a few episodes where Voyager discovered some planet, and connected with its people (maybe it was at the end of The 37s? Its been a while...) - and then there was a scene where Janeway and Chakotay were going to one of the Cargo Bays, to see who'd decided to leave and join the planet. And they open the door, and SURPRISE! Everyone wants to go back to Earth, so not a SINGLE person is leaving! Given that this was an episode in the first or second season, looking back - it just strikes me as slightly ridiculous! Especially given that part of the crew is Maquis - why would they WANT to return to the Alpha Quadrant? To get thrown into a Federation prison? Shouldn't at least one person (besides Seska) want to settle down and make a new life for themselves?!
As for the uniforms... the whole idea of maintaining rigid Federation and Starfleet principles was a bit... I don't know... I'm not saying I wanted the crew to be PIRATES, or act like the crew of the Equinox - but you think they'd have learned to bend the rules a little. Especially the Maquis.
If you ask me, the uniform issue could have been addressed in one of a few ways - Starfleet should have continued wearing the uniform, and the Maquis would have continued wearing whatever. And it should have stayed like that for AT LEAST a season - that's also how long issues should have continued arising. Even if the crew had mostly settled in, but then they came across a situation which the crew was divided upon on how to act. I don't want a full on mutiny.
But then, after a season, one of a few things could have happened - either they make up some story about how Janeway wanted them to symbolically join together, and she lets all the Maquis wear the Fleet uniform - OR (and this might have been more interesting) the crew work together to create a new uniform with features of both. I mean, they were SUPPOSED to be settling in for a 70+ year journey! They should have relaxed more over time, its not like they were going to be inspected by Starfleet anytime soon!
On that note, one other thing I forgot, that I would have liked to see:
- More crew members having children! They made a few references to needing to have a generational ship, if they were going to make it home - and there was a big deal about Naomi being the first child born on Voyager. But then that was it, until Miral was born in Season 7! Even if we barely SEE the children - small references would have been fine. E.g. the Doctor giving a check-up to a pregnant lady; a Baby Shower (they had plenty of celebrations for other occasions); setting up a school or nursery (it would have been more for Kes and Neelix to do, at the very least).
I agree about the Kazon, they weren't all that interesting to begin with, and them constantly showing up and trying to steal Voyager's technology... Well, if they were going to keep showing up, the least they could have done is developed them so they were INTERESTING!
I remember only one episode with the Trabe - where we find some of the motivation for the Kazon, and WHY they are who they are - the Kazon must have had at least a dozen episodes, why did only ONE actually develop them to be more than thugs?!
As for being stuck in one place... Well I'd suggest you read the short story, not only because it was fantastic, but also because its pretty much what I wish Voyager was. But even without that, I am a Niner - so of course I strongly believe that a show 'stuck in one place' can not only work, but also being f-ing amazing.
But by 'stuck in one place' - I don't mean stuck literally, on one planet! I mean, Voyager is crippled (oh noes, Anwar's worst nightmare!) and the crew is 'stuck' in one region of space. So they have to co-operate with the locals (in 'Places of Exile' they end up forging alliances between a bunch of local races) - the crew has to split up, with some of them working in the local Fleet (Kim actually gets promoted), meanwhile Janeway is working non-stop on getting Voyager fixed. Kes becomes a researcher and full-on Doctor. Neelix is a better Ambassador than he ever was on Voyager. And even the Doc gets his consciousness separated into a bunch of 'bodies' which he uses simultaneously.
Even without following PoE as an example, I think it would have been a fantastic opportunity for the crew to grow and change - they would actually have to co-operate with the locals, and do more than 'pass by'. So whether an episode focused on getting another race to join their alliance, or on fixing Voyager, or it could even be about the threat (in PoE, Voyager never helped the Borg defeat 8472, so they were both duking it out for years) - maybe some of the crew goes to spy on them, or they set off on a mission in an attempt to wipe them out once and for all. It could introduce new characters, from new races - and give them a motivation for joining the crew, when Voyager eventually sets off for Earth once more. And we could finally see some crew decide to STAY - and then see how this loss effects the crew who has to keep going.
I think it could have had a lot of potential - with the right writing any premise can work! Or not work.
Even if Voyager didn't get stuck in one place, I still maintain that at the very least, some better development of the main cast - and development of the recurring characters - was definitely needed. And if the writers couldn't think of anything else to do with them (which is either their own fault for creating such boring premises for their characters, or their own fault for being lazy and un-creative!) - then they should have been killed off, and some new, more interesting characters introduced!
In a thread on the DS9 forum, we were discussing the episode Its Only A Paper Moon - I don't know how familiar you people in the Voyager forum are with DS9 eps. It was basically the one where Nog holes himself up in Vic's holosuite program, after losing his leg in the previous episode (the Siege of AR-558). I've seen it, I dunno, 2-3 times now, but it wasn't until just the other day, in that thread, that it was pointed out that the episode was risky cause it pretty much entirely focused on two recurring guest stars! The recurring characters of DS9 were so seemingly integrated into the overall story, that it felt perfectly natural and normal to have an episode solely about Nog and Vic!
So I'm not surprised that when Moore came over from DS9, and tried to write for Voyager - a show with barely enough development of its MAIN characters, let alone its recurring secondary characters, that he left over creative differences!
