What would you have liked to see in VOY?

[DevilEyes]

If you don't mind the nitpick, Suder was in 3 episodes.

Meld, Basics 1 & Basics 2

As far as the development of characters, they did that the first 3 seasons and people still didn't like Neelix or Kim and there's only so much you can do with Vulcans, so Tuvok was limited. Beltran sunk his own boat by fucking up every chance he got, so Chakotay was out. So the writers kinda got stuck developing the characters anybody seemed to care about.

I consider two-parters as one episode, even if they're season finale + opener.

Beltran sucked, I agree with you there. Neelix and Kim were poorly conceived characters in the first place. Although Neelix, surprisingly, was all right whenever an episode centered on him. Still, Kim really should have had some sort of change after all they'd been through. Surely they could have come up with something... or if not, they should have just killed him off, regardless of what People magazine said.

 

[exodus]

If you don't mind the nitpick, Suder was in 3 episodes.

Meld, Basics 1 & Basics 2

As far as the development of characters, they did that the first 3 seasons and people still didn't like Neelix or Kim and there's only so much you can do with Vulcans, so Tuvok was limited. Beltran sunk his own boat by fucking up every chance he got, so Chakotay was out. So the writers kinda got stuck developing the characters anybody seemed to care about.

I consider two-parters as one episode, even if they're season finale + opener.

Beltran sucked, I agree with you there. Neelix and Kim were poorly conceived characters in the first place. Although Neelix, surprisingly, was all right whenever an episode centered on him.

Ok, fair enough but they did try.

I think they tried to give us everything we asked for within the show to some degree or another, we just found issue with everything. Not to mention the internal conflicts going on behind the set, so it turned into a no win situation for both sides.

We've all seen "Timeless", did you really believe Garrett Wang as older & troubled? No, because he was a poor actor. Maybe he did change but Wang couldn't pull it off, he couldn't pull off a believeable emotion. I think between People mag. & him being the only Asian on Trek since Takai were two soild reasons they couldn't let him go. It was easier to let go of one of the many White cast members than it was to let go one of the minorities. While I hate to make it a racial thing, that aspect has to be considered.

None of this means I disagree with your points because they're all valid but politics also comes into play here too I think. Wang is already cying "racism" because he claims Berman wouldn't let him direct, imagine the trouble he'd cause over being fired.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Kim really should have had some sort of change after all they'd been through. Surely they could have come up with something... or if not, they should have just killed him off, regardless of what People magazine said.

It could have been worse, it could have been Mayweather. Seriously, I've seen characters with only one episode to their credit with more development and depth than him.

I think between People mag. & him being the only Asian on Trek since Takai were two soild reasons they couldn't let him go. It was easier to let go of one of the many White cast members than it was to let go one of the minorities. While I hate to make it a racial thing, that aspect has to be considered.

None of this means I disagree with your points because they're all valid but politics also comes into play here too I think. Wang is already cying "racism" because he claims Berman wouldn't let him direct, imagine the trouble he'd cause over being fired.

This does have to be considered. I once made a remark over in the "Enterprise" forum that it would have been a great idea to transfer Mayweather off the ship in the third or fourth season and replace him with Shran, since Shran was inherently a more interesting character. Someone, I can't remember who, said that Mayweather should have been kept on the show simply because he was the only black character, even if he continued to have absolutely nothing to do and be essentially a background extra.

When I said that the show would still have an Asian character and two alien characters, and then three aliens if Shran was added, I was told the aliens didn't count because they were played by white actors.

Kim and Mayweather should have been given some development or just eliminated from the shows, in one way or another. Racism would have had nothing to do with it, the characters were just uninteresting.

As for what I would have liked to see on Voyager.... more secondary recurring characters, maybe an Andorian crewmember instead of Bolian ones, a little more discomfort between the Starfleet and Maquis crews, and more references to the Dominion War after they re-establish contact with the Alpha Quadrant.

 

[Piper]

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Kim's character was fundamentally flawed - by definition, a wet behind the ears cadet is essentially a blank canvas onto which could have been drawn any number of different developments - but I do go with the opinion that Wang was an extremely poor actor (as well as a charisma vacuum). This probably discouraged the writers from attempting anything very much with his character, and those twin factors contributed to the cardboard cutout we ended up with for seven years, rather than an issue with the actual character conception. (I do agree, on the other hand, that Neelix was doomed to failure from the beginning.)

Nevertheless, even if VOY had had the nine most fantastically interesting main characters ever to grace the small screen, it would still have benefitted from a range of gradually developed secondary characters over the course of the seven years, to have helped to develop the idea of an enclosed community that had to band together to survive their collected ordeal. Killing Suder off was a big mistake, his rehabilitation could have been one of the most interesting storylines any Trek had attempted.

 

[DevilEyes]

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Kim's character was fundamentally flawed - by definition, a wet behind the ears cadet is essentially a blank canvas onto which could have been drawn any number of different developments - but I do go with the opinion that Wang was an extremely poor actor (as well as a charisma vacuum). This probably discouraged the writers from attempting anything very much with his character, and those twin factors contributed to the cardboard cutout we ended up with for seven years, rather than an issue with the actual character conception.

So why did they cast such a poor actor in the first place? That's another thing that dooms a character from the start.

I don't see the race thing as a reason to keep those characters there forever. Kim and Mayweather could have been killed off, and another, recurring black or Asian character, or two - hopefully better written/better acted and more than a token character - could have been introduced (or even eventually given the status of a regular).

 

[Kezersoze]

The premise is pretty much Gilligan's Island, or Lost in Space, and the reason it's considered lower tier (which I disagree with) is because it wasn't a DS9 clone in every way, or a darkfest that ended with the entire crew killed off without exceptions.

If thats what the writers were going for than why kill most of Janeway's original crew in the opening? If you kill off the Doctor, first officer, original helmsman, chief engineer and other medical staff all in the first episode than I imagine they were going for a dark tone! lol I think people forget that these people are essentially the backups, and to me atleast that makes the story more dramatic in that how is Janeway going to incorporate the backups with Maquis terrorists. thats a pretty unique situation for a Starfleet Captain, let alone being 70,000 light years away from the nearest starbase. It's amazing though that in all of Voyager's battles their replicator systems were never damaged, destroyed or even went offline.

 

[Kezersoze]

Almost forgot to answer the thread, Seven of Nine naked in a pool of lime green jello lol

 

[Arix]

1) No space-nonce Neelix

2) A first officer who could do more facial expressions than "I'm bored", "this buttplug is getting uncomfortable"

3) Any sort of sense they are stuck on the other side of the universe not out for a pleasure cruise

4) Even a glimmer of character development

Completely agree.

I am... hesitant to start anything with Anwar, and I might regret this, but...

Sorry, but there was no place in the VOY crew for characters like Garak, Nog or Kai Winn to emerge from. Unless they picked up said character as the show went on from some other planet.

This thread is about what we would have liked to see on Voyager, not what Voyager actually was.

There was no place for interesting recurring characters on Voyager because the writers/producers didn't make a place for them.

And while you probably thought your suggestion of "unless they picked up said character from some other planet" was a reason why they couldn't have recurring characters, I must disagree.

What I would have liked to see in Voyager:

• Stronger character development and growth, as others have mentioned, Harry Kim, Chakotay and Neelix, had little to no growth during the entire 7 years. Its no coincidence that my favourite characters are the Doctor and Seven, and that both of them had the most growth during the show.

• Way more interesting recurring characters - Voyager should have picked up heaps of characters from the places they visited! Anyone who wants to argue that they had no place on Voyager - do you not remember Neelix and Kes? Or even Seven and the Borg children. If the writers had given us reasons for why x or y character wanted to travel with Voyager, we would have believed them.

• Sustained damage. I know how Anwar feels about this, but I haven't even watched nuBSG, so I'm hardly saying it should follow that as an example. But a little more consistency would have been nice! The reason I think its SO annoying, is that they do occasionally attempt to make it seem like Voyager has finite resources. At the very start they say they can't use many photon torpedos, and I'm sure there were episodes where they desperated had to stop somewhere and get supplies. And yet, the rest of the time, they have infinte torpedoes, and infinite shuttlecraft to destroy, and Voyager constantly looks shiny and new!

• Following on from the above point - more continuity. Making a show about being stuck on the other side of the galaxy, and then following TNG's alien of the week format, was a mistake IMO (and I know other people disagree, so don't even bother saying it, you're entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to mine!). I would have liked to see Voyager get damaged in one episode, and then the next episode shows them at a planet/base/wherever getting repairs, or haggling for supplies. And gaining new alien tech to replace Starfleet tech they couldn't replace (I'm sure we've been told in the past, that replications can't make everything!).

• I read something in a post just the other day, that originally Harry Kim was going to be killed off in Scorpion, not Kes. I actually liked Harry, but his character grew less than Morn in DS9! So I would have liked him to be killed off, and Kes to have stayed on.

• I would also have liked Voyager to actually stay in one region of space for a bit longer - actually establishing relationships with other races - I know they did it to some extent with the Kazon, Vidiians, Hirogen and Malon, but thats not many considering they were out there for 7 years! Voyager should have been asking more races for help, forming more alliances (or ANY alliances), trading with more races, getting new crew members from the people they met. Basically making it seem like they were actually worried about being stuck in the Delta Quadrant!

• Just as they should have gained new crewmembers, I honestly think that at least a couple of people would have left! They had many opportunities, am I really supposed to believe that all the crewmembers were as single-minded as Janeway was about returning home? Especially the Maquis, but that brings me to another point...

• Maybe there didn't need to be a mutiny, but MORE tension between Starfleet and the Maquis would have made the show more realistic IMO. Basically, the Maquis crewmembers, after a couple of small issues and a few episodes, happily become productive Starfleet crew! I remember the episode where Tuvok has to whip the slackers into shape, so they did explore the issue a little bit... but not nearly enough to make it seem believable. At the very least, the Maquis could have continued wearing their civilian clothes - most of them weren't even Starfleet officers in the past, why would they be given uniforms to wear?!

• This one's probably going to be controversial. But I would have liked it if Voyager had been stuck in one place for half a season (minimum, a full season would be even better). Janeway's obsession with getting home made her unpredictable and even downright annoying at times. In the Myriad Universes anthology, there was a Voyager story titled Places of Exile, set post-Scorpion, where Voyager was crippled and instead of taking down the Borg and Species 8472 they were forced to co-operate with the locals to get the ship repaired - over the course of years, the crew spread out and had entirely new roles, many of them serving in their allies' fleet. Until they eventually form their own Delta Coalition, and don't ever return home! I would have liked to see something similar, perhaps a season long arc where Voyager is crippled and the crew must co-operate with the locals to repair her. Over the year, we're introduced to new characters (and recurring guest characters) and our crew even begins to feel like they've established a new home for themselves. Why would they return to the Alpha Quadrant then? Well perhaps they don't want to - BUT, they soon discover a new threat/alien force (Species 8472 even?) heading for the Alpha Quadrant, so of course they have to head for Earth once more! This even provides a good reason to introduce new characters, or kill off the boring old ones like Harry, Chakotay and Neelix - maybe most of the crew even decides to stay in their new home, so new alien crew members volunteer to travel with Voyager.

• The main problem with Voyager, was that (as mentioned in a previous post I'm sure) everything was pretty much the same in Endgame as it was in Caretaker! The Doctor and Seven, and to a lesser extent, Tom and B'Elanna, are the only characters who were actually different when they returned to Earth. I would have liked all the characters to grow! There's no excuse for not developing the main characters, especially over 7 years!!

Well.. that turned out longer than expected.

I know, many people aren't going to agree with me, especially given that I'm a Niner in the Voyager forum. But do try to remember everyone, this thread did ask us what we would have liked to see - don't get all upset when we give an honest answer!

 

[Admiral Shran]

• Just as they should have gained new crewmembers, I honestly think that at least a couple of people would have left! They had many opportunities, am I really supposed to believe that all the crewmembers were as single-minded as Janeway was about returning home? Especially the Maquis, but that brings me to another point...

This is a good idea, but the only time they honestly explored the idea, when The Doctor wanted to leave in "Virtuoso," they ruined it. They basically made Janeway out to be an annoying, overbearing dictator. She made The Doctor feel awful for even wanting to leave. When he finally did decide, in fact, to leave, she almost wouldn't allow him to because Voyager needed a doctor.

That always struck me as cruel on Janeway's part. She was basically saying that the state, her, had the right to override individual liberties for the common good. Then, when The Doctor decided to return to Voyager, she further derided him for his decision, saying that it insulted many people.

• Maybe there didn't need to be a mutiny, but MORE tension between Starfleet and the Maquis would have made the show more realistic IMO. Basically, the Maquis crewmembers, after a couple of small issues and a few episodes, happily become productive Starfleet crew! I remember the episode where Tuvok has to whip the slackers into shape, so they did explore the issue a little bit... but not nearly enough to make it seem believable. At the very least, the Maquis could have continued wearing their civilian clothes - most of them weren't even Starfleet officers in the past, why would they be given uniforms to wear?!

I've always thought this myself, about the uniforms. Why did the Maquis who never were in Starfleet, or who had left the service, have to wear uniforms - sometimes even against their will, like with the slackers Tuvok whips into shape? Neelix, Kes, and Seven were never required to wear them. In fact, I remember once when Neelix expressed interest in wearing one and Tuvok acted like it would be simply inappropriate and unacceptable.

 

[Anwar]

There was no place for interesting recurring characters on Voyager because the writers/producers didn't make a place for them.

No, because there was no place in the PREMISE for them, at all. Why the heck would there be an evil religious icon, a young alien thief and a disgraced ex-spy be on a ship full of Starfleet and Maquis? Why would these people want to be on a starfleet ship from wherever they were living before? This isn't like DS9 where they had their own planets and non-fleet places to live since everything was stationary.

And while you probably thought your suggestion of "unless they picked up said character from some other planet" was a reason why they couldn't have recurring characters, I must disagree.

And why would these people leave wherever they lived before for VOY? Especially if you want them to be Winns or Garaks?

• Stronger character development and growth, as others have mentioned, Harry Kim, Chakotay and Neelix, had little to no growth during the entire 7 years. Its no coincidence that my favourite characters are the Doctor and Seven, and that both of them had the most growth during the show.

It helps that the Doc and Seven were both better actors and had better character concepts than most of those other ones. But then again, the writers tried and the audience rejected them (and don't say "then they didn't try hard enough!).

Way more interesting recurring characters

• - Voyager should have picked up heaps of characters from the places they visited! Anyone who wants to argue that they had no place on Voyager - do you not remember Neelix and Kes? Or even Seven and the Borg children. If the writers had given us reasons for why x or y character wanted to travel with Voyager, we would have believed them.

People still wonder why Neelix and Kes joined VOY, I doubt they'd just be okay with others joining VOY. But in any case, they needed Neelix as a guide, and they had no choice with Seven since otherwise the Borg would know all about them and where to look. It would get repetitive to have to pick up a new alien guide every few planets.

Also, too many characters means too much money being paid to keep them all.I was going to say something about the sustained damage, but I've said enough about that.

You asked us to not say anything about the continuity issue as well, so I won't.

I read something in a post just the other day, that originally Harry Kim was going to be killed off in Scorpion, not Kes. I actually liked Harry, but his character grew less than Morn in DS9! So I would have liked him to be killed off, and Kes to have stayed on.

Wang would have leveled racism charges on the supposedly progressive Trek franchise for removing the only asian character of the show so they could keep a blonde white woman.

I would also have liked Voyager to actually stay in one region of space for a bit longer - actually establishing relationships with other races - I know they did it to some extent with the Kazon, Vidiians, Hirogen and Malon, but thats not many considering they were out there for 7 years! Voyager should have been asking more races for help, forming more alliances (or ANY alliances), trading with more races, getting new crew members from the people they met. Basically making it seem like they were actually worried about being stuck in the Delta Quadrant!

This wouldn't have made any sense, they were always moving so why stay in one place long enough to do all this? This isn't like DS9 where they're stuck in one place.

Just as they should have gained new crewmembers, I honestly think that at least a couple of people would have left! They had many opportunities, am I really supposed to believe that all the crewmembers were as single-minded as Janeway was about returning home? Especially the Maquis, but that brings me to another point...

And why? The quadrant was a known hostile area that they'd likely die if they stayed there.

Maybe there didn't need to be a mutiny, but MORE tension between Starfleet and the Maquis would have made the show more realistic IMO. Basically, the Maquis crewmembers, after a couple of small issues and a few episodes, happily become productive Starfleet crew! I remember the episode where Tuvok has to whip the slackers into shape, so they did explore the issue a little bit... but not nearly enough to make it seem believable. At the very least, the Maquis could have continued wearing their civilian clothes - most of them weren't even Starfleet officers in the past, why would they be given uniforms to wear?!

The main reason they fought in the first place (the Cardassians and DMZ) weren't around anymore. It would've been dumb to keep up the hate due to that, and they had a bigger problem of SURVIVING to deal with.

This one's probably going to be controversial. But I would have liked it if Voyager had been stuck in one place for half a season (minimum, a full season would be even better). Janeway's obsession with getting home made her unpredictable and even downright annoying at times.

And if she did decide for them to stay in one spot, then there'd just be complaints that she wasn't driven enough to get the crew home.

In the Myriad Universes anthology, there was a Voyager story titled Places of Exile, set post-Scorpion, where Voyager was crippled and instead of taking down the Borg and Species 8472 they were forced to co-operate with the locals to get the ship repaired - over the course of years, the crew spread out and had entirely new roles, many of them serving in their allies' fleet. Until they eventually form their own Delta Coalition, and don't ever return home!

A nihilistic end to the show, they violate the PD like no tomorrow and all their efforts to go home are to waste.

I would have liked to see something similar, perhaps a season long arc where Voyager is crippled and the crew must co-operate with the locals to repair her. Over the year, we're introduced to new characters (and recurring guest characters) and our crew even begins to feel like they've established a new home for themselves.

A DS9 knock-off then, people in a stationary position. And what would happen when they left and there was demand from the audience for similar stories? Would they just get crippled every season until the end just for the sake of a few extra characters joining the cast?

 

[Admiral Shran]

There was no place for interesting recurring characters on Voyager because the writers/producers didn't make a place for them.

No, because there was no place in the PREMISE for them, at all. Why the heck would there be an evil religious icon, a young alien thief and a disgraced ex-spy be on a ship full of Starfleet and Maquis? Why would these people want to be on a starfleet ship from wherever they were living before? This isn't like DS9 where they had their own planets and non-fleet places to live since everything was stationary.

That's not what he's saying. There wouldn't have been an evil religious icon, a young alien thief, and a disgraced ex-spy on the show. He's saying why weren't other characters given the same level of development. Why weren't characters like Samantha Wildman, Vorik, and Tal Celes given that type of development?

The main reason they fought in the first place (the Cardassians and DMZ) weren't around anymore. It would've been dumb to keep up the hate due to that, and they had a bigger problem of SURVIVING to deal with.

True, the MAIN reason they were hostile toward each other had been removed. But there was more to it than that. For instance, Torres flat out told Janeway in the second episode that she droped out of the Academy because the Starfleet lifestyle "gave nobody room to breathe." By the next episode, however, she basically jumped right into that lifestyle. That kind of hostility could have been developed more, for Torres and other Maquis crewmembers who were just uncomfortable living under Starfleet regulations.

 

[You_Guyz]

• I would also have liked Voyager to actually stay in one region of space for a bit longer -....

I agree to an extent but the Kazon arc was absolutely absurd. Its all good and well to have some villains be stretched out more but we can't have Voyager be encountering the same villains for two years (particularly the same exact people) when they should be going at high warp towards earth for most of the time. Voyager's premise simply didn't allow DS9 like developments in terms of alien development, that is why much of the development should have been kept in ship.

• This one's probably going to be controversial. But I would have liked it if Voyager had been stuck in one place for half a season (minimum, a full season would be even better).....

People watch Star Trek because its in space, they don't want to see 26 episodes of the crew wonder about on some planet replacing EPS conduits on Voyager. I agree with most of your points but I would struggle to get through this season, I can barely think up what the possible stories would be for this.

No, because there was no place in the PREMISE for them, at all. Why the heck would there be an evil religious icon, a young alien thief and a disgraced ex-spy be on a ship full of Starfleet and Maquis? Why would these people want to be on a starfleet ship from wherever they were living before? This isn't like DS9 where they had their own planets and non-fleet places to live since everything was stationary.

This is the perfect example of what I was saying before.
You don't seem to be able to debate on the level that the rest of us here can,you act like a child completely twisting other people's words or simply being absurd.
The point that the poster was TRYING to make was that DS9 needed more well developed tertiary characters like Garak, Winn etc. He CLEARLY did not mean that Voyager should have exactly the same characters. Is there any reasons you are so unbelievably obtuse? Do you have aspergers or something?
I mean I'm just in complete disbelief that someone would give such a ridiculous response.

And why would these people leave wherever they lived before for VOY? Especially if you want them to be Winns or Garaks?

Another example of you being unbelievably obtuse and unable to understand even the most simple of comparisons and arguments. I will re-iterate, the mention of Garak and Winn related to well developed secondary characters, not directly to ex-spied and religious icons.

It helps that the Doc and Seven were both better actors and had better character concepts than most of those other ones. But then again, the writers tried and the audience rejected them (and don't say "then they didn't try hard enough!).

Exactly what are you referring to? The writers tried to develop characters evenly but the audience "rejected" them. Sounds like a load of meaningless BS to me.

Also, too many characters means too much money being paid to keep them all.I was going to say something about the sustained damage, but I've said enough about that.

Bullcrap, they could trim down a couple of the main cast if needed (Chakotay and Kim please) and keep plenty of secondary characters. Your whole "cost" argument is complete crap, a lot of shows manage to do it and Voyager had excellent production values, they definitely could have at least provided us with a couple of secondary characters to make the ship feel remotely real.

Wang would have leveled racism charges on the supposedly progressive Trek franchise for removing the only asian character of the show so they could keep a blonde white woman.

Do you know Wang personally? Is he some sort of racist reactionary?
This whole racial argument is out of control, every man and his monkey could tell that Wang was not working out as an actor and Harry was not working out as a character. No one with a brain would have brought up the racial argument seriously, and even if some did it didn't need to be taken seriously.

The main reason they fought in the first place (the Cardassians and DMZ) weren't around anymore. It would've been dumb to keep up the hate due to that, and they had a bigger problem of SURVIVING to deal with.

Great tunnel vision arguing technique Anwar, you truly are an asset to this board. The point the poster is trying to make is that the Maquis and Starfleet officers were not the same and did not hold the same beliefs. In any realistic situation that should lead to more conflict and compromise, nothing we saw on Voyager. I wonder if you're going to reply with your usual "take it to the extreme and attempt to make the other user look like a fool technique" on me but I'll just say first that I did not want Voyager to be dark and depressing with constant conflict, I just wanted some realistic conflict and comprimise, not TNG MK II.

 

[Anwar]

This is the perfect example of what I was saying before.
You don't seem to be able to debate on the level that the rest of us here can,you act like a child completely twisting other people's words or simply being absurd.

Funny, how instead of you getting to the point you start off by insulting whomever you're arguing with. Just like how you dodge any counter-arguments with "Well, more people agree with me and that's that."

The point that the poster was TRYING to make was that DS9 needed more well developed tertiary characters like Garak, Winn etc. He CLEARLY did not mean that Voyager should have exactly the same characters.

DS9's secondary characters came from DS9's premise and stationary location in relation to the main characters. Winn wouldn't have worked out if she was a starfleet character, nor Garak. Their characters developed based on external things unique to DS9 (Bajor and Cardassia) and thus couldn't just be transplanted or replicated in VOY.

Another example of you being unbelievably obtuse and unable to understand even the most simple of comparisons and arguments. I will re-iterate, the mention of Garak and Winn related to well developed secondary characters, not directly to ex-spied and religious icons.

And I will re-iterate that VOY's premise didn't support what you're asking. Characters like Winn and Garak relied on external circumstances unique to DS9 and coudln't just be replicated by VOY. Same goes for a lot of DS9's secondary characters.

Exactly what are you referring to? The writers tried to develop characters evenly but the audience "rejected" them. Sounds like a load of meaningless BS to me.

The audience gave VOY a harder time than the prior shows, and rejected every attempt the show gave at character development and new aliens.

Bullcrap, they could trim down a couple of the main cast if needed (Chakotay and Kim please) and keep plenty of secondary characters. Your whole "cost" argument is complete crap, a lot of shows manage to do it and Voyager had excellent production values, they definitely could have at least provided us with a couple of secondary characters to make the ship feel remotely real.

No, you just refuse to do research and see that VOY's production values and budget were more reliant on its audience than TNG and DS9, any risks taken were TOO risky and would endanger said budget. Just because we didn't see dozens of background characters having flashbacks to the pasts in every episode doesn't make the ship less "real". It just means they stayed in the background.

Great tunnel vision arguing technique Anwar, you truly are an asset to this board. The point the poster is trying to make is that the Maquis and Starfleet officers were not the same and did not hold the same beliefs.

Actually, the Maquis didn't have that many differences from the Feds aside from the whole DMZ situation.

In any realistic situation that should lead to more conflict and compromise, nothing we saw on Voyager. I wonder if you're going to reply with your usual "take it to the extreme and attempt to make the other user look like a fool technique" on me but I'll just say first that I did not want Voyager to be dark and depressing with constant conflict, I just wanted some realistic conflict and comprimise, not TNG MK II.

Frankly, you're starting to sound like the typical NuBSG whiner.

 

[crouteru]

Frankly, you're starting to sound like the typical NuBSG whiner.

Sorry, but when you start knocking the fans of a series that actually worked with it's premise, you pretty much invalidate you're arguements as far as I'm concerned.

BSG was everything Voyager wasn't. It had a healthy array of secondary characters, damage to the ship had long-term consequences, resources were low and rival nations were forced to unite together in order to survive.

If Voyager was more like that, it'd be all the more better; and if that makes me a 'typical NuBSG whiner', then so be it!

 

[You_Guyz]

DS9's secondary characters came from DS9's premise and stationary location in relation to the main characters. Winn wouldn't have worked out if she was a starfleet character, nor Garak. Their characters developed based on external things unique to DS9 (Bajor and Cardassia) and thus couldn't just be transplanted or replicated in VOY.

You STILL don't seem to understand what everyone has been gettting at. What exactly is so complicated about this?
The poster mentioning Winn and Garak did not mean they wanted characters exactly like Winn and Garak on the show, they are simply saying they would like secondary characters with similar levels of development on the show.
Why are you continuing to be obtuse and acting like the poster had said "Winn and Garak should have been on the show"?
I suppose we should just be thankful that you aren't going on about how Winn and Garak couldn't have been on the show since they were on DS9 at the time. Seriously Anwar, get a clue and start thinking about what people are actually saying to you rather than just twisting and turning it to make them sound silly when it is you who can't seem to grasp simple concepts.

The audience gave VOY a harder time than the prior shows, and rejected every attempt the show gave at character development and new aliens.

The audience gave the show a harder time for all the reasons so far mentioned in this thread.
I don't see how the audience "rejected" attempts at character development, I'd love for you to provide some evidence here, were there mass protests after "Mortal Coil","Nemesis" and "Day of Honor" perhaps?

No, you just refuse to do research and see that VOY's production values and budget were more reliant on its audience than TNG and DS9, any risks taken were TOO risky and would endanger said budget.

I'd love to see your painstaking research on the matter, maybe you could email me all the documents and research papers you have gathered. Unless you can actually provide me with any evidence that this was the reason, I will continue to believe otherwise.

Just because we didn't see dozens of background characters having flashbacks to the pasts in every episode doesn't make the ship less "real". It just means they stayed in the background.

Who said anything about flashbacks?
And in my opinion, a show about 150 people lost in space that only ever explores the lives of 8 of those characters or so does seem less real for obvious reasons.

Actually, the Maquis didn't have that many differences from the Feds aside from the whole DMZ situation.

But they did have differences and this was made quite clear, these differences should have had more consequences. They didn't because the writers couldn't be bothered with the plot anymore.

Frankly, you're starting to sound like the typical NuBSG whiner.

I actually enjoy Voyager more than NuBSG and found that the endless conflict in NuBSG was somewhat annoying at times, I do however feel a healthy amount of conflict arising logically from existing situations is essential to a show.

 

[Piper]

I'm beginning to wish I'd never mentioned Garak, Kai Winn or Nog...

 

[Jetfire]

Almost forgot to answer the thread, Seven of Nine naked in a pool of lime green jello lol

I would have like to have seen the 7 Of 9 character starting with season 2 and then in season 4 add another Borg charcter played by a very hot actress.

 

[Anwar]

BSG was everything Voyager wasn't.

A bunch of jerks who hated each other all the time when they had much more important problems to deal with?

It had a healthy array of secondary characters,

Fodder to kill off to seem "dark and edgy" while leaving the main cast untouched?

damage to the ship had long-term consequences, resources were low and rival nations were forced to unite together in order to survive.

Former enemies (who didn't even have much reason to fight in the first place) happened in VOY as well, they just didn't waste years doing it. Damage done to VOY was more easily fixable due to technology that's been a part of Trek for years prior to VOY, and resources weren't that big a problem.

NuBSG wasn't even that good about it either, the damages sustained never truly threatened the ship as the show went on and was just there to show off to the audience, and any resource problems were solved and then never mentioned again. That silly "survivor counter" was just another cheap way of saying "Ooh, look how dark this is!" by killing off namesless faceless hordes usually off-screen.

If Voyager was more like that, it'd be all the more better

A nice kick in the balls to everyone who worked hard on showing how people in Trek can work together and overcome problems, in other words.

; and if that makes me a 'typical NuBSG whiner', then so be it!

Fine, you are.

The poster mentioning Winn and Garak did not mean they wanted characters exactly like Winn and Garak on the show, they are simply saying they would like secondary characters with similar levels of development on the show.

And I'm saying that Winn and Garak's development had to do with concepts and plots that were unique to DS9, and that "developing" any background folks on VOY in that way wasn't possible.

Seriously Anwar, get a clue and start thinking about what people are actually saying to you rather than just twisting and turning it to make them sound silly when it is you who can't seem to grasp simple concepts.

The only one who needs a clue are the people who don't even GET the characters they're using as examples in the first place. Secondary characters on VOY couldn't be developed to that level, period.

The audience gave the show a harder time for all the reasons so far mentioned in this thread.

For the entire cast not falling to pieces and spending the entire show hating one another, while the ship turns into a floating piece of garbage?

I don't see how the audience "rejected" attempts at character development, I'd love for you to provide some evidence here, were there mass protests after "Mortal Coil","Nemesis" and "Day of Honor" perhaps?

The endless criticisms that started in S1 and never ended, for one thing.

I'd love to see your painstaking research on the matter, maybe you could email me all the documents and research papers you have gathered. Unless you can actually provide me with any evidence that this was the reason, I will continue to believe otherwise.

Talk to Exodus.

Who said anything about flashbacks?
And in my opinion, a show about 150 people lost in space that only ever explores the lives of 8 of those characters or so does seem less real for obvious reasons.

Well, clearly we need to know the entire life stories of everyone on VOY for the show to be "real" .

We hardly saw the rest of the station's crew for DS9, I suppose that means the Station's role as a Starfleet outpost wasn't "real". Do you want the lives of all 40,000 humans in the Battlestar fleet to be examined as well? Perhaps Babylon 5 would've been better if they showed us the lives of all 250,000 people living on the station?

But they did have differences and this was made quite clear, these differences should have had more consequences. They didn't because the writers couldn't be bothered with the plot anymore.

They had NO differences outside of the Cardassian situation, and continuing them in the Delta Quadrant would've been nonsensical. You want the crews to be at odds over real problems, make the other crew Romulans and not Maquis.

I actually enjoy Voyager more than NuBSG and found that the endless conflict in NuBSG was somewhat annoying at times, I do however feel a healthy amount of conflict arising logically from existing situations is essential to a show.

If the audience had just accepted the alien species introduced as antagonists then they would've been a good source of conflict. They hated everything, leaving the VOY team with nothing to work with.

 

[Jetfire]

They had NO differences outside of the Cardassian situation, and continuing them in the Delta Quadrant would've been nonsensical. You want the crews to be at odds over real problems, make the other crew Romulans and not Maquis.

I actually like this idea or somehow a who's who of Federation enemies...not usre how that would work but I think the Maquis were a bad route to go.

 

[Piper]

Secondary characters on VOY couldn't be developed to that level, period.

That's not true. TPTB simply chose not to develop secondary characters to that level. There's nothing in the premise that precludes against it - as I've said before, VOY's isolation actually lends itself to greater secondary character development.