What was the Kelvin doing in the Prime Universe?

[trevanian]

20 years later, and ENORMOUS sums of money later, and look at HIDE & Q -- it looks at least as bad as any planetscape on TOS, probably cause the crew didn't know how to shoot the horizon properly or light the thing for mood effect. So you can't just tar TOS with the cheap & fake brush, it extends.

Very true. I wasn't trying to knock TOS (my favorite series); I was just using it as a more obvious example.

And to be fair to that ep, I think that was intended as some imaginary planet created by Q anyway.

Although I'm sure you can point out other examples from TNG.

Outside of QWHO and MEASURE OF A MAN, there are very few s1 or s2 shows I have rewatched in the last 15 years, but that one really stuck in mind (I actually hadn't considered the imaginary angle, but that would excuse a bit.) By s3, they had at least started to figure out how to make the planet seem a little less awful, so I excuse most of those that follow.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

20 years later, and ENORMOUS sums of money later, and look at HIDE & Q -- it looks at least as bad as any planetscape on TOS, probably cause the crew didn't know how to shoot the horizon properly or light the thing for mood effect. So you can't just tar TOS with the cheap & fake brush, it extends.

Very true. I wasn't trying to knock TOS (my favorite series); I was just using it as a more obvious example.

And to be fair to that ep, I think that was intended as some imaginary planet created by Q anyway.

Although I'm sure you can point out other examples from TNG.

Outside of QWHO and MEASURE OF A MAN, there are very few s1 or s2 shows I have rewatched in the last 15 years, but that one really stuck in mind (I actually hadn't considered the imaginary angle, but that would excuse a bit.) By s3, they had at least started to figure out how to make the planet seem a little less awful, so I excuse most of those that follow.

To add:

Look at "Code of Honor", the skyscape in the throne balcony looks awful. Look at "Haven," in the holodeck scene with Troi and Riker, while beautifully lit (the purplish sky), the horizon is painfully obvious. It calls back to the planetscapes on TOS.

Moreover, the production design of TNG wasn't all that impressive, imo, after Herman Zimmerman left. All of Richard James' sets looked boxy and square, especially those done as "swing" rooms on the Enterprise-D. But James was instrumental in giving the planet sets more of a "natural" lighting scheme that really went a long way to vaniquishing the fake look. Look at "The Inner Light," the way the sun gets brighter and brighter throughout the episode as time passes for Picard on the planet. It's one of the best looking TNG planet-based sets.

Although, my brother and I joke that most of the planet scenes in ModTrek all took place in a cave, and they did especially on ENT. "Another cave, what a surprise!" we'd say watching the reruns.

 

[USS Excelsior]

Since TOS we never got that background ambiance sound which was the same on every alien planet they visited.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Since TOS we never got that background ambiance sound which was the same on every alien planet they visited.

Yeah, I really like that they used the low whistle and chimes on Delta Vega in this movie.

 

[Shazam!]

Who's to say that the black hole didn't lead to an actual alternate universe, not just a past timeline? It would certainly explain why the prime universe was not altered in any way - because Nero and Spock Prime didn't emerge in *its* past, they emerged in another *universe's* past.

(It would also explain other things, such as the altered stardate system and the look of the Kelvin being so different from TOS.)

That's the only way to see it in my book. It eliminates any continuity headaches rather nicely.

 

[BriannaLee]

And if the Kelvin was in the Prime Universe, the viewscreens, consoles, and weapons must have took a step backward between 2233 and 2265.

You mean you prefer 1960's fx to 2009's ?????

 

[Disillusioned]

Things got so much better when they started shooting on location instead of trying to build a set. But I guess if they can go back and improve the FX for TOS, they could start doing it for the other series, too.

 

[CaptainPipcard]

And if the Kelvin was in the Prime Universe, the viewscreens, consoles, and weapons must have took a step backward between 2233 and 2265.

You mean you prefer 1960's fx to 2009's ?????

No, but imagine if they made a Star Trek (prime) series in 2009. What would that be like?

 

[Shazam!]

You mean you prefer 1960's fx to 2009's ?????

I prefer 1960's aesthetics.

 

[TIN_MAN]

My guess is that without the Lightning Storm In Space phenomena, Captain Robau was probably headed to Earth for some upgrades/repairs/crew rotation etc., with Winona and George Kirk due for some Maternity leave in their native Iowa.

Without the stress of what happened in the movie, the medications slowing down the birth of Winona's child would lead to her giving birth in Iowa a month later than in the movie.

George Kirk may well have gotten back to the Kelvin for further missions as First Officer, while Winona stayed back and brought up the young James Kirk.

They would then move offworld once Jim Kirk was old enough, where Kodos the Executioner would show up during a famine, and we know the rest there ...

Nice bit of reasoning.

Amen--and frankly, it's what I always thought, too.


Frankly, I'm amazed that SO many fans don't even bother rationalizing the "inconsistancy" like this--they're just all content to whine and moan about how their precious "canon" has been raped....

Don't you guys read TrekMovie.com? that's the very explanation the new "Supreme Court" intended.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Who's to say that the black hole didn't lead to an actual alternate universe, not just a past timeline? It would certainly explain why the prime universe was not altered in any way - because Nero and Spock Prime didn't emerge in *its* past, they emerged in another *universe's* past.

(It would also explain other things, such as the altered stardate system and the look of the Kelvin being so different from TOS.)

That's the only way to see it in my book. It eliminates any continuity headaches rather nicely.

But also eliminates all need for time travel in the movie, really...

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

That's part of why I feel everything in this movie must be an AU ala "Parallels" rather than an altered timeline caused by Nero and his merry band going back in time.

What I don't get is why people don't see these as one in the same in this case.

As explained by Data in Parallels -- each of the parallel universes represent the result of different decisions or actions or choices made in the past. Making a choice or decision, or any event for that matter -- by definition is creating a parallel universe where that event took place.

Someone decides to make yellow cake for Worf's birthday party -- a yellow cake parallel universe is created at that point.

Someone decides to make chocolate cake for Worf's birthday party -- a chocolate cake parallel universe is created at that point.

The Kelvin flies through space toward Earth and passes the location where no Narada appears, no black hole appears. Kirk being born on Earth parallel universe is created.

The Kelvin flies through space and all of a sudden a Romulan mining ship from the future appears and blows it away. JJ parallel universe is created.

I don't think it really matters where the Narada came from. An event occurred to create a parallel universe. According to Data's Parallels description, even though he didn't say these exact words -- all time travel back to the past would create a parallel universe by virtue of changing an event, and also - -regardless of how the parallel universes depicted in "Parallels" were created.

Additionally, I see no reason why the No Sensor Logs universe in Parallels could not have been a result of someone changing history somewhere. Hell, one of the hundreds of Enterprises that showed up toward the end of Parallels could very well have been from the JJVerse. The person who cheated in the Bat'leth tournament and beat Worf in the "Worf loses the Bat'leth tournament" parallel universe could have been an agent of the Duras family sent from the future.

 

[Shazam!]

But also eliminates all need for time travel in the movie, really...

Eliminating the need for time travel in Star Trek XI would've been the dream.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

That's part of why I feel everything in this movie must be an AU ala "Parallels" rather than an altered timeline caused by Nero and his merry band going back in time.

What I don't get is why people don't see these as one in the same in this case.

As explained by Data in Parallels -- each of the parallel universes represent the result of different decisions or actions or choices made in the past. Making a choice or decision, or any event for that matter -- by definition is creating a parallel universe where that event took place.

Someone decides to make yellow cake for Worf's birthday party -- a yellow cake parallel universe is created at that point.

Someone decides to make chocolate cake for Worf's birthday party -- a chocolate cake parallel universe is created at that point.

The Kelvin flies through space toward Earth and passes the location where no Narada appears, no black hole appears. Kirk being born on Earth parallel universe is created.

The Kelvin flies through space and all of a sudden a Romulan mining ship from the future appears and blows it away. JJ parallel universe is created.

I don't think it really matters where the Narada came from. An event occurred to create a parallel universe. According to Data's Parallels description, even though he didn't say these exact words -- all time travel back to the past would create a parallel universe by virtue of changing an event, and also - -regardless of how the parallel universes depicted in "Parallels" were created.

Additionally, I see no reason why the No Sensor Logs universe in Parallels could not have been a result of someone changing history somewhere. Hell, one of the hundreds of Enterprises that showed up toward the end of Parallels could very well have been from the JJVerse. The person who cheated in the Bat'leth tournament and beat Worf in the "Worf loses the Bat'leth tournament" parallel universe could have been an agent of the Duras family sent from the future.

Now this is a good explanation about what happened.

 

[Disillusioned]

I'm still of the mind that the JJ-verse goes back much further than the Narda's appearance. Not that thinking that makes the movie any better for me or anything, but that's the way I think of it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That's part of why I feel everything in this movie must be an AU ala "Parallels" rather than an altered timeline caused by Nero and his merry band going back in time.

What I don't get is why people don't see these as one in the same in this case.

I don't equate an alternate *timeline* with an alternate *universe*. I see those as two completely separate concepts.

An alternate universe is a distinct, physical location. Not created by making a choice - it always existed. An alternate *timeline*, on the other hand, is more like an idea. A sequence of events. Nothing more than that.

 

[Disillusioned]

That isn't how it was described in "Parallels". In any case, as much as is different about what was seen, I see no problem assigning it with the "alternate universe" even by your definition.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

And if the Kelvin was in the Prime Universe, the viewscreens, consoles, and weapons must have took a step backward between 2233 and 2265.

You mean you prefer 1960's fx to 2009's ?????

No, but imagine if they made a Star Trek (prime) series in 2009. What would that be like?

I'm pretty sure that it would be exactly like STXI.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'm still of the mind that the JJ-verse goes back much further than the Narda's appearance. Not that thinking that makes the movie any better for me or anything, but that's the way I think of it.

Me too. I generally assume that the entire JJ-Verse is basically an alternate timeline created by the events in First Contact (and therefore includes Enterprise). I don't think it's been addressed yet that all of the things the Enterprise crew did in FC would have screwed up the future almost as drastically as anything the Borg could have done.

Of course, by this assumption I am also tempted to put FC, Insurrection and Nemesis as part of the JJ-Verse so I can happily lie to myself and assume TNG ended with Generations.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Me too. I generally assume that the entire JJ-Verse is basically an alternate timeline created by the events in First Contact (and therefore includes Enterprise). I don't think it's been addressed yet that all of the things the Enterprise crew did in FC would have screwed up the future almost as drastically as anything the Borg could have done.

FC is a predestination paradox. It was always supposed to happen. There never was a timeline where it did not.

At least that's how I look at it.