What is your favorite pairing involving Kes (or do you think none is)?

[Lynx]

Wasn't the threat to the Ocampans from the Kazon ended by the end of the first Voyager episode?

If Kes couldn't be safely returned to her people then Neelix should have left her alone then. He's too old for her..

Just to show that I'm not the only one who has stated the obvious problems with the Kes character: https://whatculture.com/tv/10-most-hated-star-trek-characters?page=8

"
Even on paper, this character doesn't (and shouldn't) work. A race of aliens who only live nine years, told through the eyes of a young woman who is barely two years old - yet is in an adult relationship with a man thirty years her senior. Not only that, but Neelix and Paris fight over her affections.


She. Is. A. Child."

No she isn't!

She is the equivalent of an 18-20 years old.

is Tuvok an old man who should have been retired 20 years before Voyager got lost?

Why are people so narrow-minded and obsessed by age and numbers.

I find it downright stupid.

Let's see it from another angle:

Imagine that your all time favorite poster Lynx all of a sudden gets the chance to go back in time, take charge over the production of Voyager and its writers and change the whole scenario so that Ocampa actually is a planet with a 10 year orbit around the sun.

One Ocampa year is actually 10 Earth-years long.

Would that change the opinion among the age-obsessed in this case?

Or would they still be obsessed by numbers as such and compare every single planet in the universe with Earth and its 12-months orbit?

One of the few things in your post I can agree with is that the nine-year lifespan itself was a serious mistake and downright stupidity from the writers. It limited the character, not to mention that a species with such a short lifetime could never develope into more than primates.

It was just another typical stupidity from those writers, comparable with the shuttle and photon torpedo stupidity, sort of "oh yes, we have never had anything like that in Star Trek!"

Instead of fixing the problem, they just let it be. Just like "Oh, that didn't work, but never mind, the viewers won't notice."

If Voyager had had writers instead of clowns, the problem could have been easily solved.

Ocampa could have been described as a planet with a 10 year orbit around the sun which would have solved all problems.

Or Kes could have been given a human lifespan by Q or Suspiria.

As for Linnis, that scenario should never have been written. It actually makes the situation worse and pours fuel on the fire. One reason why Before And After isn't one of my favorite episodes (except for Jennifer Lien's excellent acting in the episode) is that the writers makes everything what is wrong with that lifespan stupidity worse instead of getting rid of it.



As for the arrogant fool who rated the "10 most hated characters", well you know where I think that he can stuff his morbid hatred and where he can go!

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I think Kes was a good character but given that Kes is already quite worldly and self-assured when we meet her, the 9 year life span didn't really serve to add anything to the character.

As for pairings. I think Kes and Neelix would have worked better as a father/daughter relationship, which would have tied in well with Neelix's need for a family after losing his. Kes's developing psychic abilities could have been used as a metaphor for Kes growing up and stories could have been mined of Neelix trying to navigate his surrogate daughter becoming something unknown.

As for romantic pairings, i thought the only person Kes really worked with was Zahir. They had actual chemistry and both had independent, inquisitive personas.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Finally, Lynx comes to reinforce me.

Again, I ask you to think about Vulcans. Od, if we go beyond Star Trek, Grogu from Star Wars. According to your logic, he should be treated as an adult because he have more experience than many human adults. But he clearly is not an adult and nobody treats heim as such. This obsession with numbers is tiresome.

Also, I believe Lynx found some evidence Kes/Neelix was never sexual. In my theory, Ocampa rarely have sex and instead use telepathic manipulation to do what other do sex for, other than reproduction.

And yes, short lifespan was a mistake.

Also, at least Kes is an alien. What Star Wars fandom has to deal with is harder... Clones who age twice as fast as normal humans. And are human.

 

[Oddish]

Well, that's what Neelix essentially is. I mean, Kes, even as an Ocampan, had only 2 years of life experiences, right? How can you not think that that isn't an improper relationship?

Definitely improper.

But, dating a person who is physically adult but chronologically underage might be morally repugnant, but it's not pedophilia. Matter of fact, it's just the opposite. A pedo's ideal "partner" would be someone who had lived the legally required 18 years, but looked younger.

The only being Kes should've been paired with is another Ocamapan, obviously. The relationship with Neelix was one-sided. He took advantage of Kes, who only had 2 years of life experience and no knowledge of the outside world. If he was a real man, with ethics, he would never ever had had a romantic relationship with her to begin with.

In general, probably true. Physical maturity will only do so much. Life experiences have to cover the rest. That, I believe, is why Harry didn't pursue a relationship with Seven.

Human and Federation standards are irrelevant.

Not to an audience of humans, as this discussion verifies.

The only standard that matters in determining Kes' adulthood is Ocampa's. And they say that Kes is an adult. So by definition, she is.

Federation law would verify this. But some people would have personal convictions that would say otherwise.

Besides, it is clear that Neelix/Kes relationship was not sexual. So it's not even that.

Not do sure about that.

Also, if it would be really bad, I am sure Janeway would step in. I mean, it is clear Kes is like a daughter to her. If it would be really bad, she would put an end to it.

Agreed. It's possible that since the Federation consists of sentients who have widely varied lifespans, they're cooler with age differences than we 20th century humans are.

Actually, why is nobody complaining about the Doctor? He has even less experience than Kes and yet nobody complainins that he had relationships, and even had sex! He may have all the medical knowledge, but his personal experience is worse than Kes'

Probably because he's been infused with the personality and possibly some life experiences of Dr. Zimmerman.

Yeah, somehow people are all latching onto Neelix/Kes, but completely ignoring "Before and After" situation.

In my opinion, B&A is the distillation of the journey they wanted to take Kes on over the course of the series: life itself, from start to end. They were just able to be a bit more egregious about it: I don't think Harry/Linnis would have flown if we'd seen her as a baby, two or three years earlier (followed by the necessary sequence of child actors).

Ok, I'll call Kim a pedo too in the alternate timeline where he married Linnis. That''s beyond creepy.

It's definitely odd. Especially since he was probably babysitting her a few years earlier.

But as I said before, it's not pedophilia.

Yep. I'm applying human standards to an alien species that was depicted as humanoid. Humanoids are generally treated largely human-like in Star Trek so, close enough.

That is what we do as humans. And because of that, there's not really any character on the show who was a good match for Kes.

If Kes couldn't be safely returned to her people then Neelix should have left her alone then. He's too old for her..

As for Linnis, that scenario should never have been written. It actually makes the situation worse and pours fuel on the fire. One reason why Before And After isn't one of my favorite episodes (except for Jennifer Lien's excellent acting in the episode) is that the writers makes everything what is wrong with that lifespan stupidity worse instead of getting rid of it.

I think it was an effort to illustrate how human/Ocampa relations would unfold, especially if the short lifespan was genetically dominant. But since we humans associate "two-year-old" with sippy cups and teddy bears, it's a hard sell.

Since I know that Neelix, Tom, and Harry are honorable men, I still enjoy the episode. I just don't think about it too much.

As for pairings. I think Kes and Neelix would have worked better as a father/daughter relationship, which would have tied in well with Neelix's need for a family after losing his.

I'll go along with that.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

But, dating a person who is physically adult but chronologically underage might be morally repugnant, but it's not pedophilia. Matter of fact, it's just the opposite. A pedo's ideal "partner" would be someone who had lived the legally required 18 years, but looked younger.

That actually get me somewhat worried, since it appears this is the case with Vulcan species.

And Vulcan practices regarding sex are sketchy at best. Much more so than this situation on Voyager.

As for Kes, in my main storyline, she's not paired up with anyone. But it is not because of her age (she got her lifetime extended and spent some time time - travelling before reuniting with the Voyager crew), but because of her powers potentially being misused if she had a strong "attachment" (romantic especially) to anyone.

 

[Oddish]

That actually get me somewhat worried, since it appears this is the case with Vulcan species.

Fortunately, I expect that Federation undoubtedly prohibits such misbehavior, and that each species sets an appropriate age of consent.

As for Kes, in my main storyline, she's not paired up with anyone. But it is not because of her age (she got her lifetime extended and spent some time time - travelling before reuniting with the Voyager crew)

You, me, and Lynx all did the same thing there. Of course, in my story, it was just mentioned briefly in passing.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Also, I think the reason why Neelix toned down his jealousy after "Partitution" (other than to Tom, as this was because of his talk with Tom) was because Janeway realized it went a bit too far and had a serious talk with Neelix about it.

 

[rocketscientist]

No she isn't!

She is the equivalent of an 18-20 years old.

is Tuvok an old man who should have been retired 20 years before Voyager got lost?

Why are people so narrow-minded and obsessed by age and numbers.

I find it downright stupid.

In a way, Kes is a child. She might have the brain development and physical maturity of a 20 year old at 2 years old but, again, she is obviously lacking in life experience.

Tuvok, on the other hand, is obviously mature both physically and mentally and has more than enough life experience. That seems to me to be the difference.

I don't think that means I'm necessarily narrow minded. I mean, think about it. These pedos who prey on children make that argument, don't they? I get what you're saying, I really do. Kes was obviously supposed to be seen as, and, on the show, was treated as a 20 year old, but it's a hard sell. It's like Oddish said, you just have to accept it and not think about it, but it is there and it definitely hasn't aged well and I think it was an extremely bad call.

As for your remedy of a planet with a 10 earth year orbit, yeah, of course that would make everything ok because chronologically, Kes would be 20 years old. I'm not sure what kind of world Ocampa would be, but whatever.

 

[Lynx]

Finally, Lynx comes to reinforce me.

Again, I ask you to think about Vulcans. Od, if we go beyond Star Trek, Grogu from Star Wars. According to your logic, he should be treated as an adult because he have more experience than many human adults. But he clearly is not an adult and nobody treats heim as such. This obsession with numbers is tiresome.

Also, I believe Lynx found some evidence Kes/Neelix was never sexual. In my theory, Ocampa rarely have sex and instead use telepathic manipulation to do what other do sex for, other than reproduction.

And yes, short lifespan was a mistake.

Also, at least Kes is an alien. What Star Wars fandom has to deal with is harder... Clones who age twice as fast as normal humans. And are human.

Honestly, I don't know if Kes and Neelix had a sexual relationship. I've seen nothing which confirms that they had but nothing which confirms the opposite so I won't speculate about it.

And frankly I don't care if they had or not. The only thing which sometimes annoys me is that "age thing" when the relationship between Kes and Neelix is discussed since I see Kes as an equivalent to an 18-20 year old in Caretaker.

Not to mention that when Q gave Kes a human lifespan in one of mt stories, the whole problem became obsolete.

Agreed. It's possible that since the Federation consists of sentients who have widely varied lifespans, they're cooler with age differences than we 20th century humans are.

Especially when it comes to aliens, like the Vulcans for example.

Probably because he's been infused with the personality and possibly some life experiences of Dr. Zimmerman.

Exactly.

In my opinion, B&A is the distillation of the journey they wanted to take Kes on over the course of the series: life itself, from start to end. They were just able to be a bit more egregious about it: I don't think Harry/Linnis would have flown if we'd seen her as a baby, two or three years earlier (followed by the necessary sequence of child actors).

Honestly, I don't know what Berman and Braga thought about.

Sometimes I got the impression that they just did throw a dice when it came to certain ideas. In this case, it was most likely that they wanted to create something which hadn't been in Star Trek before.

When it didn't work, they didn't do anything to solve the problem. It was more like "Ah, never mind. The viewers won't notice".

Not only when it came to the Ocampa but with lots of other things as well which just were left to be "floating" and never explained or corrected.

When the whole nineyear life-span thing didn't work, or more correct was revealed as totally unrealistic and hampering for the character, they just let it "float" and it was only mentioned now and then, like when they messed iot up even more in Before And After.

However, i were hints about a prolonged lifespan for Kes, not only in Before And After but in Cold Fire as well which they should have used instead.

As for Berman and Braga, I don't hate them and they did a great job with TNG. But they did seem to lose interest for Voyager almost from the beginning and definitely in season 3 when they didn't seem to know in which direction they should take the series and then they started to mess up everything.

But what they did to Kes was horrible and I do have my theories why, however I know that some posters here don't agree with me about the motive.

Not to mention that they ruined Star Trek when they decided to do a retro series instead of continuing in the 24th century. The result is what we have today and that's another thing I find it hard to forgive them for

It's definitely odd. Especially since he was probably babysitting her a few years earlier.

But as I said before, it's not pedophilia.

No, it isn't. But the whole situation is a bit creepy and that scenario shouldn't have been created.
As I see it, they should have given Kes a human lifespan instead of creating a scenario which messed up the Ocampa even more.

It was like trying to restore a wrecked house without material to rebuild it and it just came down on them.

That is what we do as humans. And because of that, there's not really any character on the show who was a good match for Kes.

Not without prolonging her lifespan or give her a human one.

I think it was an effort to illustrate how human/Ocampa relations would unfold, especially if the short lifespan was genetically dominant. But since we humans associate "two-year-old" with sippy cups and teddy bears, it's a hard sell.

Since I know that Neelix, Tom, and Harry are honorable men, I still enjoy the episode. I just don't think about it too much.

As I wrote about, they were trying to do something with a miserably concept and they ruined it even more. They should never have made it.

Some parts of Before And After are good and I enjoy the glimpses of Kes's childhood and Jennifer Lien's acting in it but the whole concept was too messed up for me.

I see it as some sort of nightmare and I'm happy that it was that or something which took place in another universe, timeline, dimension or whatever.

You, me, and Lynx all did the same thing there. Of course, in my story, it was just mentioned briefly in passing.

I did it deliberately because it was the only way to save the character for future stories and to restore her after the destruction made to the character in The Gift and that other episode.

 

[Lynx]

In a way, Kes is a child. She might have the brain development and physical maturity of a 20 year old at 2 years old but, again, she is obviously lacking in life experience.

Tuvok, on the other hand, is obviously mature both physically and mentally and has more than enough life experience. That seems to me to be the difference.

I don't think that means I'm necessarily narrow minded. I mean, think about it. These pedos who prey on children make that argument, don't they? I get what you're saying, I really do. Kes was obviously supposed to be seen as, and, on the show, was treated as a 20 year old, but it's a hard sell. It's like Oddish said, you just have to accept it and not think about it, but it is there and it definitely hasn't aged well and I think it was an extremely bad call.

As for your remedy of a planet with a 10 earth year orbit, yeah, of course that would make everything ok because chronologically, Kes would be 20 years old. I'm not sure what kind of world Ocampa would be, but whatever.

To the mods: Sorry for two posts in a row here. I usually try to avoid it but the post I'm replying to showed up after I had written my previous one and I just felt a need to reply to it.

I disagree with Kes being a child and lacking in life experience. At least not more than a human 20-year old person.

But Tuvok is OLD and should not be involved in space adventures but isntead sitting on a bench in a Vulcan park, feeding birds or whatever they got on Vulcan, isn't he?

OK, I'm kidding but people often have that opinion of old people. How many times have I seen psts on forums who ridicule Mick jJagger for still being a rocker, despite the fact that he can sing, perform and write songs better than most 18-30 year old people today.

However, I can see some of your points and that's one of the reasons why I think that the nine-year lifespan was a big mistake. It only created problems.


Presenting a theory in which Ocampa is a planet with a 10 year orbit is one way to solve the problem, maybe even a bit better than my solution in which she gets a human lifespan.

The latter option was great when it came to restore the character after the destruction but the former would possibly be more logical because that would erase the mistakes which were there from the beginning.

However, it would need a total rewrite of the first three seasons and that would be a tough job for one writer.

 

[rocketscientist]

It'll be interesting to see my kids reaction to Voyager if I'm actually allowed to show it to them by my wife. She's already said she doesn't want them to watch Discovery because of the LGBTQ+ characters. I think when she remembers that Kes is only 2 years old, she might very well put the brakes on VOY for them too.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Yes, this short lifetime was a mistake. But my explanation of that is that is not natutral, but a change in the DNA... Tomake more soldiers when Ocampa were fighting a war for survival (with the proto - Borg). Just my fnafiction, but it explains the quick growth. And the quick getting older is irrelevtnm for soldiers, as they are likely to die before in combat. And the Ocampa were unable to reverse it... Well, until the 24th century.


"However, it would need a total rewrite of the first three seasons and that would be a tough job for one writer. "


Well, you know I did that, right, Lynx?

 

[fireproof78]

In a way, Kes is a child. She might have the brain development and physical maturity of a 20 year old at 2 years old but, again, she is obviously lacking in life experience.

Tuvok, on the other hand, is obviously mature both physically and mentally and has more than enough life experience. That seems to me to be the difference.

I don't think that means I'm necessarily narrow minded. I mean, think about it. These pedos who prey on children make that argument, don't they? I get what you're saying, I really do. Kes was obviously supposed to be seen as, and, on the show, was treated as a 20 year old, but it's a hard sell. It's like Oddish said, you just have to accept it and not think about it, but it is there and it definitely hasn't aged well and I think it was an extremely bad call.

As for your remedy of a planet with a 10 earth year orbit, yeah, of course that would make everything ok because chronologically, Kes would be 20 years old. I'm not sure what kind of world Ocampa would be, but whatever.

Agree on all points. It's not a numbers thing but an experience thing.

Or would people rather work with someone with only 2 years experience at their job over 20?

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

What about the Jem'Hadar? They are even younger than Kes when they go to fightm, yet they do they jobs very well.

 

[Oddish]

Some parts of Before And After are good and I enjoy the glimpses of Kes's childhood and Jennifer Lien's acting in it but the whole concept was too messed up for me.

Yeah. I'm also not wild about her short lifespan being do completely dominant. Indeed my head canon is that for Ocampa hybrids, they mature fast, but morilogium comes later. Maybe Linnis will live 20-25 years, and Andrew might last 45-50.

Not to mention that they ruined Star Trek when they decided to do a retro series instead of continuing in the 24th century. The result is what we have today and that's another thing I find it hard to forgive them for

My issue is that they DIDN'T do a retro series. Phasers, photon torpedoes, TRANSPORTERS... didn't feel like frontier Trek, it felt like more of the same.

When it didn't work, they didn't do anything to solve the problem. It was more like "Ah, never mind. The viewers won't notice".

Typical of them. Like when they said there were 38 torpedoes... but fired close to 100, without explaining the change. Were they dumb, or did they think we were?

What about the Jem'Hadar? They are even younger than Kes when they go to fightm, yet they do they jobs very well.

Well, remember that most of the crew could fight them hand to hand without being totally flattened. I'm figuring that the Founders couldn't genetically front-load them with that much combat skill, and it was more economical to just breed more than to train them individually. Especially since they had a short lifespan.

 

[fireproof78]

What about the Jem'Hadar? They are even younger than Kes when they go to fightm, yet they do they jobs very well.

They're bred for that purpose.

Was Kes bred to be in romance ans so matures faster?

Then the two cases are equal. Otherwise, rings of a false equivalency.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

What I mea to say is that diffrent species can gain experience faster. After all, what truly makes an alien is now how they look like, but how they think. And we know the Ocampa learn faster. As do the Jem'Hadar. Yes, the Jem'Hadar have genetic memories... But who said the Ocampa don't as well? And who said the Ocampa were not modified to be better soldiers in the past? We know nearly nothing about this species' past. they may be more similar to the Jem'Hadar than it seems. I mean fast growth, innate telekinnesis.telephatic powers that can be weaponized, natural determination, tendecy toward obedience... This sounds a lot of like a soldier species. Like the Jem'Hadar.

 

[Oddish]

And given their highly limited natural reproduction, it stands to reason that to keep their population up, they had to be artificially generated.

 

[fireproof78]

What I mea to say is that diffrent species can gain experience faster. After all, what truly makes an alien is now how they look like, but how they think. And we know the Ocampa learn faster. As do the Jem'Hadar. Yes, the Jem'Hadar have genetic memories... But who said the Ocampa don't as well? And who said the Ocampa were not modified to be better soldiers in the past? We know nearly nothing about this species' past. they may be more similar to the Jem'Hadar than it seems. I mean fast growth, innate telekinnesis.telephatic powers that can be weaponized, natural determination, tendecy toward obedience... This sounds a lot of like a soldier species. Like the Jem'Hadar.

It's a fun theory and reasonable enough, with nothing to prove or disprove.

We simply don't know nor do we see them in combat. Could easily be an experiment like Dal too, modifications from several species to produce something for a specific purpose.

 

[Lynx]

It'll be interesting to see my kids reaction to Voyager if I'm actually allowed to show it to them by my wife. She's already said she doesn't want them to watch Discovery because of the LGBTQ+ characters. I think when she remembers that Kes is only 2 years old, she might very well put the brakes on VOY for them too.

Show her some of my posts about the subject.
No, Im not kidding and i'm not writing this to be mean. It's only to show her another petrspective of it than the one you might have.

As for DSC, keep the children away from that one because it will bore them to death or make them dislike Star Trek. Keep them away from the gloomy Nutrek movies and PIC for the same reasons.

Show them TOS, TNG, DS9 and the first three seasons of Voyager. That will make them interested!
And by all means, never,ever let them watch a certain season 6 episode of Voyager!

Yeah. I'm also not wild about her short lifespan being do completely dominant. Indeed my head canon is that for Ocampa hybrids, they mature fast, but morilogium comes later. Maybe Linnis will live 20-25 years, and Andrew might last 45-50.

In my head canon for the Ocampa, Tanis and his gang has taken over the planet and prolonged their lifespan to what humans have.

My issue is that they DIDN'T do a retro series. Phasers, photon torpedoes, TRANSPORTERS... didn't feel like frontier Trek, it felt like more of the same.

Which is another problem for me.
If they absolutely had to do a retro series (which I found totally unnecessary), then thiey should have made it look like pre-TOS, not something out of Voyager, Stargate or Babylon 5.

Not to mention how they screwed up established Trek history with it.

It was all about them being big-headed and wanting to make a TOS better than the old TOS.
Honestly, the old German series Raumpatrouille (Space Patrol) is a better pre-TOS series than ENT.
Not to mention that it was first aired in Germany 3 months before TOS was first aired in the US!
The design of everything in it is much more primitive than it is in TOS but that makes it even more appropriate as a possible pre-TOS series, the missing link between Cochrane and TOS.

Typical of them. Like when they said there were 38 torpedoes... but fired close to 100, without explaining the change. Were they dumb, or did they think we were?

They were big-headed and had a low opinion of the viewers.
When they made mistakes, which often happened, it was all about "Ah, don't bother. The viewers won't notice". [/QUOTE]