What is your favorite pairing involving Kes (or do you think none is)?

[BohandiAnsoid]

But Kes had especially good memory, so she actually had more experience than other 2 years old members of other species. Besides, her species is telethic. She might actually had memories shared by other Ocampa, if you insist it is nessesary to make her mature enough.

Why are people so sensitive about it, anyway? This is an alien species, diffrent than humans. It wasn't explained enough in the show. And sometimes, I feel Kes was actually more mature than Seven of Nine later on.

Agaion, think how Vulcans or other species that dfevelops longer than humans wouild look at human relationships. For me, if Kes fully understood and agreed to what she was getting into, and I see she did, it was all right.

And why nobody ever suggested that Kes might have exploited Neelix? After all, we know she's a powerful telephath not very experienced with using of her powers. Who knows if she wasnlt accidentally influencing Neelix, if we must look into everything.

Again, it is hard to understand an alien mind.

 

[rocketscientist]

But Kes had especially good memory, so she actually had more experience than other 2 years old members of other species. Besides, her species is telethic. She might actually had memories shared by other Ocampa, if you insist it is nessesary to make her mature enough.

Why are people so sensitive about it, anyway? This is an alien species, diffrent than humans. It wasn't explained enough in the show. And sometimes, I feel Kes was actually more mature than Seven of Nine later on.

Agaion, think how Vulcans or other species that dfevelops longer than humans wouild look at human relationships. For me, if Kes fully understood and agreed to what she was getting into, and I see she did, it was all right.

And why nobody ever suggested that Kes might have exploited Neelix? After all, we know she's a powerful telephath not very experienced with using of her powers. Who knows if she wasnlt accidentally influencing Neelix, if we must look into everything.

Again, it is hard to understand an alien mind.

Well, you certainly argue your point well, I must concede. I get what you're saying.

But, imo, there's no way of getting around how horrible the whole relationship just looks without the rationalizations you bring up. I mean, I know for sure that I'm not the first person who has said this. I've read other commentaries published online where people have said the same exact thing. People are naturally sensitive about this stuff. Parents definitely are.

 

[fireproof78]

The only being Kes should've been paired with is another Ocamapan, obviously. The relationship with Neelix was one-sided. He took advantage of Kes, who only had 2 years of life experience and no knowledge of the outside world. If he was a real man, with ethics, he would never ever had had a romantic relationship with her to begin with.

In any case, again, the entire basis for the Kes character with such an abbreviated lifespan was absurd. .

Indeed yes. Both the age and power dynamics are questionable at best, not to mention Kes' odd lifespan. The Ocampan strike me as a slave race experiment gone wrong and then another alien species stepped in.

And that's really the challenge. Kes she's different than almost any other species seen in Trek and yet gets treated like it's totally unremarkable, and that all her stuff is just like humans. It's not though and it makes for uneven pairings.

Kes is an interesting character, and perhaps Tom is the least ick factor for me but I genuinely think having her solo and just learning on Voyager was a better tactic than being in a romantic relationship.

How Neelix handled the jealousy wasn't much better but that's on him.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Well, that's what Neelix essentially is. I mean, Kes, even as an Ocampan, had only 2 years of life experiences, right? How can you not think that that isn't an improper relationship?

Because Kes is still an adult.

An Ocampa adult, to be sure, but still an adult.

It doesn't ing MATTER that she's only 2 years old. By Ocampa standards, that is adulthood.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Can you tell exactly why Tom is generally considered less problematic (althought not fully problem - free) partner for Kes than Neelix?

 

[rocketscientist]

Because Kes is still an adult.

An Ocampa adult, to be sure, but still an adult.

It doesn't ing MATTER that she's only 2 years old. By Ocampa standards, that is adulthood.

What about human standards, since humans comprised the majority of Voyager's complement? Or Federation standards?

Or, heck, even Telaxian standards? How would Neelix's fellows judge his relationship with Kes?

It's kind of the elephant in the room. No one questioned the propriety of that relationship on the ship. It was never investigated, debated, etc.

And this was a time with the sex scandals in the Catholic Church and schools were emerging.

Again, it looks horrific and it just seems beyond stupid.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

I guess the Federation don't have a set age standard, but a way of assessing when a being can give an informed consent (maybe based on brain development). I am sure the Federation have it done somehow in the law. But they have to distinct between species that develops at different rates. I mean, a 20 years old human at their right mind can generally be mature enough to give an informed consent, but a 20 years old Vulcan is still not mature enough.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What about human standards, since humans comprised the majority of Voyager's complement? Or Federation standards?

Human and Federation standards are irrelevant.

The only standard that matters in determining Kes' adulthood is Ocampa's. And they say that Kes is an adult. So by definition, she is.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Besides, it is clear that Neelix/Kes relationship was not sexual. So it's not even that.


Also, if it would be really bad, I am sure Janeway would step in. I mean, it is clear Kes is like a daughter to her. If it would be really bad, she would put an end to it.

 

[rocketscientist]

Human and Federation standards are irrelevant.

The only standard that matters in determining Kes' adulthood is Ocampa's. And they say that Kes is an adult. So by definition, she is.

Who is the "they" who said Kes is an adult? The other Ocampans? Captain Janeway and the EMH?

I agree that she was treated as one on the show, but, again, the fact remains that she only had 2 years of experience in a very insular environment. It was sick and criminal for Neelix to essentially kidnap her from Ocampa and, actually, it looks like Janeway and Voyager were accessories in that.

Now, I do think Fury was character assassination but in reality, yeah, Kes does have a very big axe to grind by finally figuring out she was victimized.

Was that the way it was played in the reality of the show? No.

Was that the way it should have played out given the particulars? I'd say yes.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

As I said, it is canon that Ocampa species have better memory than humans or others. So they learn and gain experience faster. This way, Kes actually may remember just as much as 20 years old human. And this quick learning was mentioned early on in the show by the Doctor.

Actually, why is nobody complaining about the Doctor? He has even less experience than Kes and yet nobody complainins that he had relationships, and even had sex! He may have all the medical knowledge, but his personal experience is worse than Kes'


Actually, of you think about Kes, Doctor/Kes may be as equal as you get on Voyager, for both of them.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Who is the "they" who said Kes is an adult? The other Ocampans?

Yes.

Hell, Ocampa are probably adults at ONE year, let alone two.

And I don't see anybody calling Harry Kim a pedophile because he married Linnis, so why is Neelix one for being with Kes?

You keep mentioning how Kes was only two years old. IRRELEVANT. You are applying human standards to an alien species.

And no, Neelix didn't kidnap Kes. He rescued her from Kazon captivity.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Yeah, somehow people are all latching onto Neelix/Kes, but completely ignoring "Before and After" situation.

Honestly, while Neelix/Kes had its problems and it was good that they broke up
(even if the break-up was poorly executed), this wasn;t the real problem. Real problem was Neelix's jelousy, him underestimating/downplaying Kes' intelligence and maturity (while Kes somewhow showed that she was more mature than most of the crew) and Kes' unwillingness to let Neelix go, even if it meant killing people (in Tuvix, althought she at least grew out of this one later).

 

[fireproof78]

Before and After is what made go "This is creepy" and rethink the whole thing.

With Neelix, we don't know enough and just assume it's all fine. But, well, it doesn't hold up well looking back.

 

[rocketscientist]

Yes.

Hell, Ocampa are probably adults at ONE year, let alone two.

And I don't see anybody calling Harry Kim a pedophile because he married Linnis, so why is Neelix one for being with Kes?

You keep mentioning how Kes was only two years old. IRRELEVANT. You are applying human standards to an alien species.

And no, Neelix didn't kidnap Kes. He rescued her from Kazon captivity.

1. Ok, I'll call Kim a pedo too in the alternate timeline where he married Linnis. That''s beyond creepy.

2. Yep. I'm applying human standards to an alien species that was depicted as humanoid. Humanoids are generally treated largely human-like in Star Trek so, close enough.

3. After Neelix rescued Kes he should've left her with her people on Ocampa. That was the right thing to do right from the beginning, especially when we all saw how Kes ended up, unhappy and angry at being victimized, in Fury.

As I said, it is canon that Ocampa species have better memory than humans or others. So they learn and gain experience faster. This way, Kes actually may remember just as much as 20 years old human. And this quick learning was mentioned early on in the show by the Doctor.

So what if she has better memory? She still doesn't have the life experience. 1 second of experience with Kes is still 1 second for anyone else, right?

The memory helps but it doesn't level "growing up."

I guess the Federation don't have a set age standard, but a way of assessing when a being can give an informed consent (maybe based on brain development). I am sure the Federation have it done somehow in the law. But they have to distinct between species that develops at different rates. I mean, a 20 years old human at their right mind can generally be mature enough to give an informed consent, but a 20 years old Vulcan is still not mature enough.

This is a logical explanation, but I don't recall it ever being exposited on any of the shows, in particular with regard to Kes.

Besides, it is clear that Neelix/Kes relationship was not sexual. So it's not even that.


Also, if it would be really bad, I am sure Janeway would step in. I mean, it is clear Kes is like a daughter to her. If it would be really bad, she would put an end to it.

It's been awhile since I watched Voyager, but was it made plain that the Kes-Neelix relationship wasn't sexual? I mean, didn't she talk about mating with Neelix or something in Elogium?

And, yeah, I agree that Janeway was the logical de-facto maternal figure for Kes and I bet some viewers that are moms will watch Voyager and wonder why in the world she would put up with that relationship with Neelix on her ship.

Actually, why is nobody complaining about the Doctor? He has even less experience than Kes and yet nobody complainins that he had relationships, and even had sex! He may have all the medical knowledge, but his personal experience is worse than Kes'


Actually, of you think about Kes, Doctor/Kes may be as equal as you get on Voyager, for both of them.

Weren't the Doctors partners unequivocably adults? I recall the Vidian lady but was there another?
And the Doctor wasn't a person in any case and had programmed experiences and knowledge. Kes didn't have that, so I think there is a difference.

As far as Doctor Kes, um, no. Kes should have been treated, at the most, as a teen sister. People should've been friends with her and not tried to exploit her circumstances and age, like Neelix did.

Before and After is what made go "This is creepy" and rethink the whole thing.

With Neelix, we don't know enough and just assume it's all fine. But, well, it doesn't hold up well looking back.

It doesn't hold up right from the beginning, at all.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Yep. I'm applying human standards to an alien species

You don't get to do that.

Simply being humanoid is, once again, irrelevant. What is adulthood for an Ocampa may not be adulthood for a human.

As for returning Kes to the Ocampa? That was also not an option. The Ocampa were being brutalized and enslaved by the Kazon. Why should Neelix return Kes to an abusive environment like that?

 

[fireproof78]

It doesn't hold up right from the beginning, at all.

I mean, I'm sure you're right but I watched 3 episodes as a teen in the 90s and gave up and only tried out episodes here and there.

So, my recognizing it came much later.

 

[rocketscientist]

You don't get to do that.

Simply being humanoid is, once again, irrelevant. What is adulthood for an Ocampa may not be adulthood for a human.

As for returning Kes to the Ocampa? That was also not an option. The Ocampa were being brutalized and enslaved by the Kazon. Why should Neelix return Kes to an abusive environment like that?

Wasn't the threat to the Ocampans from the Kazon ended by the end of the first Voyager episode?

If Kes couldn't be safely returned to her people then Neelix should have left her alone then. He's too old for her..

Just to show that I'm not the only one who has stated the obvious problems with the Kes character: https://whatculture.com/tv/10-most-hated-star-trek-characters?page=8

"
Even on paper, this character doesn't (and shouldn't) work. A race of aliens who only live nine years, told through the eyes of a young woman who is barely two years old - yet is in an adult relationship with a man thirty years her senior. Not only that, but Neelix and Paris fight over her affections.


She. Is. A. Child."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

She. Is. A. Child."

No, she isn't.

 

[Akiraprise]

She. Is. A. Child.

Yeah she's most definitely not depicted as a child. The nine year life span, using on screen episodes as a basis, mostly Before and After which depicts her living most of her life naturally on board the ship, was shown to be the equivalent of a human living to be 90 years of age. She was 2 when we meet her or the equivalent of late teens early 20s in a human maturation cycle. This is how Lien played her as well. She certainly wasn't playing with dolls and getting her diaper changed as a normal human two year old still is. The "She's a Child" argument holds no water. She made her own decisions. Not to say Neelix didn't influence her, but he isn't a pedo. Hell Kes was independent enough to leave her city and choose to explore the over-world in the first place without Neelix's influence.