Spoilers What is the connection between Doctor Soong and Khan Singh?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Charles Phipps, May 27, 2022.

  1. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed. And it's quite interesting to try and make sense of the Eugenics Wars, given its also WW3 but the conflict of WW3 was in the 21st century.
     
  2. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    Keeping the now-outdated dates really isn't important. The bottom line is that moving the Eugenics Wars up into the 21st century serves the same purpose as the 1990s dates did in 1967--both establish that this is an event that happens in our near future but Trek's past.
     
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  3. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And again: why is that important?

    Trek's timeline has always been separate and distinct from our own. You can't just keep moving the goalposts just because they don't sync up. Because they're never going to.
     
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  4. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

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    It's not an agree or disagree thing, they both have different definitions.
    Canon is the body of work, all of it, even the contradictions. Continuity is how it fits together.

    Both James R. Kirk and James T. Kirk are canon, but James T. Kirk has superseded/retconned James R. Kirk in the continuity.

    Same with when the Eugenics Wars happens now.

    What time period you live in. Before 2022 they were in the 90s, but from now on they're sometime post 2021.

    But since we're going in circles I'll stop here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2022
  5. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    Why are the dates important?
     
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  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Trek has treated itself as part of our timeline. Hence the LA IN Voyager is our LA, not a wartorn cityscape.

    They keep moving things because it's about our humanity.
     
  7. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because this isn't DW. Trek actually cares about continuity.

    At least I thought it did.

    The USA was not involved in the Eugenics Wars.
     
  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I find it hard to believe that it would not be mentioned. Whole populations bombed out of existence, World War 3 ongoing and Paris' comments are about having a fast car.

    What? :wtf:

    Sorry, Trek updates itself. The Eugenics Wars and World War III are confusing data points since TNG.
     
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  9. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

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    That has never been stated in any series.

    According to Spock in Space Seed:

    SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called World War." War, singular.

    But later series/movies put the last World War in the mid 21st century with World War 3, not in the mid-1990s with the Eugenics Wars like Spock said.

    Or you could just rationalize it like Memory-Alpha does, there were various Eugenics Wars, in the 90s and in the 2000s.

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Eugenics_Wars

    "The Eugenics Wars (or the Great Wars) were a series of conflicts fought on Earth between 1992 and 1996, and during the 21st century (aka as the Eugenic War, Second Civil War and World War III)."
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2022
  10. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Why is it important to be beholden to a random date given in a show written by people who had no earthly idea that shows in that universe would still be going over 5 decades later?

    Sure you can.
     
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  11. TedShatner10

    TedShatner10 Commodore Commodore

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    I have a head canon that were two Eugenic Wars - the 1st one in the early to mid 1990s with Khan involved with myriad Yugoslavian, Rwandan or Syrian scale fictional conflicts, with Khan himself as a Blofeld style mastermind, and a 2nd Eugenics war mixed in amongst the US civil conflict and WW2 involving the Soong estate/company in the mid 21st century.
     
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  12. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ I'm OK with that.

    It satisfies continuity (both TOS and SNW/PIC) andnothing needs to be decanonized. It's win-win! :beer:
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2022
  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not canon.
     
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  14. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not caring.
     
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  15. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

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    But you were just arguing about canon.
     
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  16. lawman

    lawman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Actually, the show has never treated itself as part of our timeline. It's "close" to our reality, with similar cultural trends and social problems, but it's not our history. This was clear when Kirk and Spock stopped the launch of an orbital nuclear platform in 1968; it was clear this summer when Picard and company visited a version of 2024 that includes personal force fields, human cloning, a manned voyage to Europa, and (Easter-eggy) references to things like Sanctuary Districts and Jackson Roykirk, creator of the Nomad probe.

    It's not our history. It never was, it never will be, it never can be. And in Trek's history, the Eugenics Wars happened between 1992 and 1996.
     
  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Sorry, Trek is massively inconsistent on this point. The Eugenics Wars are reported to be the "last of Earth's World Wars," so "World War 3." World War 3, according to TNG, happens in the 21st century, including the "post atomic horror" until first contact with the Vulcans.

    Trek tries very hard to have its cake and eat it too. When they go back in time it is back to our 1980s, our 1990s. It's the same attitude that comics take, and Trek tries for both ways as much as possible.

    So, canon status is no longer important? Got it. :beer:
     
  18. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, they have always mentioned Eugenics WarS. Plural.

    So given that "Space Seed" and TWOK mentioned Eugenics Wars taking place from 1992 to 1996 - and, apparently, SNW mentions wars taking place in the 21st century - therefore, they can be both true.
     
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  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    TNG placed it in the 21st century first with saying WW3 happened in the 21st Century, which TOS connects with the Eugenics Wars.
     
  20. Ianburns252

    Ianburns252 Captain Captain

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    If in doubt - Spock states that records are patchy for the era, easy enough to reconcile that some dates in the records were wrong (so wasn't just 92-96 if at all) or that he is speaking about a specific sub conflict of the greater WW3 that lasted through to 2053 or whenever it was (so war with Khan happened then, but subsequent battles, Civil War 2 - Even Civilier than the First, and the official WW3 all loosely link together from then)

    Feels like an easy, everyone wins fix
     
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