What do older fans think?

[jmidnight_99]

As a soon to be 44 year old with a Ph.D. in physics the spore drive helped me fully let go of any notion that the tech in Trek is something that could be possible. Growing up with TOS reruns then TNG, Trek, along with my curiosity and love of nature pushed me into a science education. But as a kid, I thought that a lot of it was possible. It is not and the spore drive is just as ridiculous as the transporter. It's all space magic. Knowing that is is absurd is different from being able to shrug it off and the Spore drive forced me to shrug it off.

I still have a hard time with the Super Engineers who know everything, can immediately come up with ideas to exploit available resources and test more than 1 in an episode. This shit drives me nuts as someone who actually developed some technologies to fabricate CPUs before moving on to a role in "operations." It takes a long time to develop the most basic piece of tech even to just put together a demo. The Super Engineers in fiction are not believably smarter than us normal people. They are as smart as dozens of people who spent dozens of years becoming experts on a subject matter and can execute 100s of times faster than a team of developers. It pisses me off because it cheapens science by showing it all as trivial as going to the lab for a few hours and winning. Again, space magic.

Gee whiz...

As a soon to be 44 year old with a Ph.D in physics, why do you sound like someone out of the 1700s mockingly saying man will never harness the atom, fly, make it to the moon, and never have a machine in his pocket that can instantly connect him to anyone else in the world, access every book ever written, every song ever sung, every piece of information ever recorded, think, perform millions of calcualtions per second, and weighs under 5 ounces?

You have no idea what the future holds, but the scariest thing for a 44 year old with a Ph.D in physics is that you don't seem to know what you don't know. Perhaps a little reading about the wisdom of ignorance?

One of my favorite Voyager scenes is from the episode "Concerning Flight":

DA VINCI: I cannot believe it. I will not believe it. My mind cannot accept the evidence of my eyes. Is this sorcery? Are we in Purgatory?
JANEWAY: Neither. You said yourself this place was full of marvels.
DA VINCI: Marvels, yes, but this is magic. Enchantment, not science. And I refuse to believe in enchantment.
JANEWAY: I'll explain later. We've got to keep moving.
DA VINCI: No! I must understand. Catarina, to see objects disappear into thin air. To see lightning pass through my body. Are we spirits? Catarina, am I dead?
JANEWAY: Let me ask you something. If you were something other than a human being. If you were a different kind of animal. If you were a small bird, a sparrow. What would your world be like?
DA VINCI: I should make my home in a tree, in the branch of an elm. I should hunt insects for food, straw for my nest, and in the springtime I should sing for a companion.
JANEWAY: And you would know nothing of the politics of Florence, the cutting of marble, or mathematics?
DA VINCI: Of course not.
JANEWAY: But why not?
DA VINCI: My mind would be too small.
JANEWAY: As a sparrow your mind would be too small? Even with the best of teachers?
DA VINCI: If Aristotle himself were to perch on my branch and lecture till he fell off from exhaustion, still the limits of my mind would prevent me from understanding.
JANEWAY: And as a man, can you accept that there may be certain realities beyond the limits of your comprehension?
DA VINCI: I could not accept that. But I would be a fool.

It isn't just that we know next to nothing at this point in our evolution, the bigger point is that we probably do not yet have the capacity to understand all that there is to understand. We are sparrows. What is there in this universe that even if explained to us by a higher intelligence would still be completely beyond our comprehension?

Your letter just floored me..

 

[jmidnight_99]

They really aren't, though. Farscape. The Expanse. Firefly. Babylon 5, excusing them for set design and some unnatural dialogue. Battlestar Galactica. Orphan Black. Humans. Man in the High Castle. Stranger Things. Westworld. We've now seen what good sci-fi can look like, and no longer have to drink the sand. For me, Discovery fits into that list. Berman Trek belongs nowhere near it.

Many of these are in the horror or thriller genre, and others in the fantasy and the supernatural genres. Others I barely consider science fiction. If you like these things, fine. But I don't. "WE" haven't seen what "good" science fiction looks like, YOU have found genres and sub-genres of science fiction that appeal to you. and that's OK. I genuinely dislike like horror and thriller genres, less so the supernatural and fantasy genres, but I despise all of them sitting on top of "science fiction". It's what you seem to like, but it doesn't make them "better" than other genres in any way.

I personally enjoy the exploratory / adventure nature of Star Trek. I enjoy the science in the science fiction. I enjoy that Star Trek is positive at the end of the day, and perhaps uplifting. Someone once said the bridge characters on Voyager were bland and boring. You know what? Real people are bland and boring. The situations that they found themselves in aren't. This makes it all the more real to me.

I read your whole response and all I can say is... Dude... I'm glad you have found what interests you most. "Good" science fiction. As opposed to the "Bad" science fiction that I like?

 

[fireproof78]

Define good.

 

[DigificWriter]

Many of these are in the horror or thriller genre, and others in the fantasy and the supernatural genres.

This is not correct.

All but one of the series that was mentioned in the comment you quoted are explicitly Science Fiction.

 

[jmidnight_99]

This is not correct.

All but one of the series that was mentioned in the comment you quoted are explicitly Science Fiction.

From either IMDB or Wikipedia:

Stranger Things is an American science fiction drama-horror television series...

Orphan Black is a Canadian science fiction thriller television series...

Westworld is a American science-fiction western thriller television series...

The Man in the High Castle is an American alternate universe fanstasy television series...

Is it correct now?

 

[AlanC9]

Does Westworld deserve the "western" part of that anymore?

 

[fireproof78]

Can people define their terms? Seriously! "Science fiction" is a rather broad brush at this point, with a scale of harder to softer and a wide variety in between.

And, dare I ask people to define "good" science fiction? So maybe, just maybe, we can have civil conversation rather than the sniping?

 

[Lord Garth]

I feel like I'm missing something here. Like something went from 0 to 60. All I'm seeing is opinion vs opinion. It doesn't seem that particularly heated.

 

[fireproof78]

I feel like I'm missing something here. Like something went from 0 to 60. All I'm seeing is opinion vs opinion. It doesn't seem that particularly heated.

I might be misreading tone. My bad.

 

[Aragorn]

When I think "older fans" my mind goes to people who were alive to watch TOS when it first aired. But I guess I'm an older fan now since I was alive to watch TNG when it first aired. Star Trek has been around for that long now.

I just started watching Discovery and I enjoy it. I even find it better than Picard. Is it a great show? No. But it's good, and that's fine. Not everything is The Wire or Breaking Bad. Not even TOS, TNG and DS9 are The Wire or Breaking Bad.

There was a recent article about Voyager somewhere online. It said TOS was esteemed, TNG was beloved and DS9 was revered. Then there's the rest of Star Trek. Voyager was the only Trek that I considered awful enough to stop watching. I can't see myself dropping Discovery.

 

[dinzy]

Gee whiz...

As a soon to be 44 year old with a Ph.D in physics, why do you sound like someone out of the 1700s mockingly saying man will never harness the atom, fly, make it to the moon, and never have a machine in his pocket that can instantly connect him to anyone else in the world, access every book ever written, every song ever sung, every piece of information ever recorded, think, perform millions of calcualtions per second, and weighs under 5 ounces?

You have no idea what the future holds, but the scariest thing for a 44 year old with a Ph.D in physics is that you don't seem to know what you don't know. Perhaps a little reading about the wisdom of ignorance?

One of my favorite Voyager scenes is from the episode "Concerning Flight":

DA VINCI: I cannot believe it. I will not believe it. My mind cannot accept the evidence of my eyes. Is this sorcery? Are we in Purgatory?
JANEWAY: Neither. You said yourself this place was full of marvels.
DA VINCI: Marvels, yes, but this is magic. Enchantment, not science. And I refuse to believe in enchantment.
JANEWAY: I'll explain later. We've got to keep moving.
DA VINCI: No! I must understand. Catarina, to see objects disappear into thin air. To see lightning pass through my body. Are we spirits? Catarina, am I dead?
JANEWAY: Let me ask you something. If you were something other than a human being. If you were a different kind of animal. If you were a small bird, a sparrow. What would your world be like?
DA VINCI: I should make my home in a tree, in the branch of an elm. I should hunt insects for food, straw for my nest, and in the springtime I should sing for a companion.
JANEWAY: And you would know nothing of the politics of Florence, the cutting of marble, or mathematics?
DA VINCI: Of course not.
JANEWAY: But why not?
DA VINCI: My mind would be too small.
JANEWAY: As a sparrow your mind would be too small? Even with the best of teachers?
DA VINCI: If Aristotle himself were to perch on my branch and lecture till he fell off from exhaustion, still the limits of my mind would prevent me from understanding.
JANEWAY: And as a man, can you accept that there may be certain realities beyond the limits of your comprehension?
DA VINCI: I could not accept that. But I would be a fool.

It isn't just that we know next to nothing at this point in our evolution, the bigger point is that we probably do not yet have the capacity to understand all that there is to understand. We are sparrows. What is there in this universe that even if explained to us by a higher intelligence would still be completely beyond our comprehension?

Your letter just floored me..

Are you serious? The laws of physics have very clear limitations. There is a difference between being ignorant and thinking things can't change and understanding fundamental limits of our universe. In order to transport a human as energy you would need to contain that energy and add to it to counteract any losses. Go ahead and propose an achievable mechanism for sending a person from a spaceship to a planet surface that is feasible based on the laws of physics as we know them. So what if we get smarter? Science doesn't keep adding more scope to the realm of possibilities, it adds constraints while also adding detail.

Take warp. It might be possible but it would take the ability to harness virtually unobtainable amounts of energy. Why would anyone devote such enormous resources to even try to develop something that is so expensive energy wise? This isn't remotely equivalent to someone before the discovery of the electron not being able to predict a driverless car. It's absurd to equate the two. The amount of scientific understanding we have attained over the last 3 centuries absolutely bought us the ability to call bullshit on fantastical things thought up by writers who have no deep understanding of science.

Similarly your post 'floored' me. Magic is not real, and we are not going to magically discover technology that makes everything 100s of times better. Some areas can improve that much, others cannot. Calling someone who worked his ass off to learn a hard science ignorant for not thinking that there is some supernatural space of knowledge that we will unlock once our brains get big enough is kind of silly.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Gene wasn't okay with Wrath of Khan and gave away that the Enterprise was being destroyed in STIII because he didn't like that, either. If he'd remained in control after TMP, Trek would have evolved very differently.

IIRC, Roddenberry organised for Susan Sackett to announce Spock's death at a UK SF convention, but it was Paramount's own advance trailer for ST III that spoilerized the destruction of the Enterprise, much to Have Bennett's dismay.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Are you serious? The laws of physics have very clear limitations. There is a difference between being ignorant and thinking things can't change and understanding fundamental limits of our universe. In order to transport a human as energy you would need to contain that energy and add to it to counteract any losses. Go ahead and propose an achievable mechanism for sending a person from a spaceship to a planet surface that is feasible based on the laws of physics as we know them. So what if we get smarter? Science doesn't keep adding more scope to the realm of possibilities, it adds constraints while also adding detail.

Take warp. It might be possible but it would take the ability to harness virtually unobtainable amounts of energy. Why would anyone devote such enormous resources to even try to develop something that is so expensive energy wise? This isn't remotely equivalent to someone before the discovery of the electron not being able to predict a driverless car. It's absurd to equate the two. The amount of scientific understanding we have attained over the last 3 centuries absolutely bought us the ability to call bullshit on fantastical things thought up by writers who have no deep understanding of science.

Similarly your post 'floored' me. Magic is not real, and we are not going to magically discover technology that makes everything 100s of times better. Some areas can improve that much, others cannot. Calling someone who worked his ass off to learn a hard science ignorant for not thinking that there is some supernatural space of knowledge that we will unlock once our brains get big enough is kind of silly.

Your post kind of sums up why I can't take trek fans who put star trek on scientific pedastal seriously. Star Trek is and always has been Science-Fantasy, but because it apparently lead to the invention of the iPad, some fans think Trek is bordering on scientific truth. The things we see in Star Trek whether it be a transporter or a dilithium crystal are all just magical items with high tech names. How are transporters in Star Trek that much different from the floo's of Harry potter?

 

[jmidnight_99]

Are you serious? The laws of physics have very clear limitations. There is a difference between being ignorant and thinking things can't change and understanding fundamental limits of our universe. In order to transport a human as energy you would need to contain that energy and add to it to counteract any losses. Go ahead and propose an achievable mechanism for sending a person from a spaceship to a planet surface that is feasible based on the laws of physics as we know them. So what if we get smarter? Science doesn't keep adding more scope to the realm of possibilities, it adds constraints while also adding detail.

Take warp. It might be possible but it would take the ability to harness virtually unobtainable amounts of energy. Why would anyone devote such enormous resources to even try to develop something that is so expensive energy wise? This isn't remotely equivalent to someone before the discovery of the electron not being able to predict a driverless car. It's absurd to equate the two. The amount of scientific understanding we have attained over the last 3 centuries absolutely bought us the ability to call bullshit on fantastical things thought up by writers who have no deep understanding of science.

Similarly your post 'floored' me. Magic is not real, and we are not going to magically discover technology that makes everything 100s of times better. Some areas can improve that much, others cannot. Calling someone who worked his ass off to learn a hard science ignorant for not thinking that there is some supernatural space of knowledge that we will unlock once our brains get big enough is kind of silly.

You do not know everything there is to know, MAN does not know everything there is to know, nor does he have the capacity to understand all that there is to be understood. Get over yourself. You sound like some medieval alchemist insisting that the Earth could only be at the center of the universe.

 

[Vger23]

I hate anything and everything that isn't exactly the way I want it.



And I talk about it on the internet



Incessantly.

 

[Aragorn]

Gene wasn't okay with Wrath of Khan and gave away that the Enterprise was being destroyed in STIII because he didn't like that, either. If he'd remained in control after TMP, Trek would have evolved very differently.

We'd have lyrics to the TMP/TNG theme song, for starters.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

We'd have lyrics to the TMP/TNG theme song, for starters.

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[jmidnight_99]

We'd have lyrics to the TMP/TNG theme song, for starters.

Like ST:ENT? It was a nice song, but I could have done without it as a ST theme song.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Does Westworld deserve the "western" part of that anymore?

Dunno... never watched it.

 

[Aragorn]

Like ST:ENT? It was a nice song, but I could have done without it as a ST theme song.

No, that was an already-existing song. Roddenberry wrote lyrics for Alexander Courage's TOS theme as a way to claim co-composer credit and steal half of the royalties.