Were Tuvok and Neelix aware Janeway killed Tuvix?

[jmidnight_99]

I believe the clinical term is "binary clone" and that is a real thing. Look it up.

But this is the fundamental problem here. It was not a clone, nor was it a child. It was the accidental combination of the DNA of three separate entities, and far more importantly, a combination of two separate, unwilling entities.

It had no claim to own those separate consciousnesses, it had no right to exist at other's expense. This is the point in it's entirety, and one you seem to be ignoring. It did not have the right to exist at the expense of Tuvok and Neelix. If it had been born, it would have the right to it's own self, but it was not.

Janeway did exactly the right thing. Her responsibility was to Tuvok and Neelix. Not to an aberration created by accident. At a time in history when accidents like this CAN happen, the rights belong to the accident victims, NOT the aberration. This is a reasonable interpretation, considering Tuvix to be same as Spock is not. This is the second thing you seem to be ignoring.

And, debates get heated. The fact that a debate gets heated is not a reason not to engage. You don't fool me. You don't have an argument to defend.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If Tuvix is the child of Neelix and Tuvok...

Parents have a history of sacrificing everything for their children.

I'm wondering about their spare time.

What they were reading or viewable entertainment, holodecks even.

When the boys got back, their reading and viewing queues would have been all messed up.

Moreso if they did remember their life as Tuvix, how Tuvix comprehended those stories would have been wrong from Neelix and Tuvoks perspective.

What?

The racists here say that Tuvix is an unnatural impossible thing, a disgusting aberration, which implies that this abomination could never be found in the real world without something perverse rubbing its unlikelies together.

Not true.

If a Talaxian and a Vulcan made sweet sweet love enough, their kid would look very similar to Tuvix.

Tuvix is wholesome.

 

[jmidnight_99]

In fact, if Tuvok had a child with Neelix' sister or Neelix' with Tuvok's sister then once grown up the child would likely look very much like Tuvix. Which means that Tuvix is no more an aberration than Spock for example.

I hope you're kidding.

 

[jmidnight_99]

If Tuvix is the child of Neelix and Tuvok...

Parents have a history of sacrificing everything for their children.

I'm wondering about their spare time.

What they were reading or viewable entertainment, holodecks even.

When the boys got back, their reading and viewing queues would have been all messed up.

Moreso if they did remember their life as Tuvix, how Tuvix comprehended those stories would have been wrong from Neelix and Tuvoks perspective.


The racists here say that Tuvix is an unnatural impossible thing, a disgusting aberration, which implies that this abomination could never be found in the real world without something perverse rubbing its unlikelies together.

Not true.

If a Talaxian and a Vulcan made sweet sweet love enough, their kid would look very similar to Tuvix.

Tuvix is wholesome.

So am I.

Do you think I buy this?

 

[jmidnight_99]

If Tuvix is the child of Neelix and Tuvok...

Parents have a history of sacrificing everything for their children.

I'm wondering about their spare time.

What they were reading or viewable entertainment, holodecks even.

When the boys got back, their reading and viewing queues would have been all messed up.

Moreso if they did remember their life as Tuvix, how Tuvix comprehended those stories would have been wrong from Neelix and Tuvoks perspective.


The racists here say that Tuvix is an unnatural impossible thing, a disgusting aberration, which implies that this abomination could never be found in the real world without something perverse rubbing its unlikelies together.

Not true.

If a Talaxian and a Vulcan made sweet sweet love enough, their kid would look very similar to Tuvix.

Tuvix is wholesome.

If a Talaxian and a Vulcan made sweet love, I'd puke. Thanks for the errr.... visual. Why does the spellchecker want to change Talaxian to Italian? What's going on here?

 

[marlboro]

How funny would it have been if Neelix traveled all the way to the Alpha Quadrant and ended up marrying Tuvok's sister?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Neelix marrying a woman close to twice his age?

After dating a one year old, for waa-ay too long, karmically this price is due.

Remember how Tuvix dumped his Katra, before volunteering for suicide?

Considering his escape plan was bullshit unless Janeway delivered him to the great forest...

That is why Janeway and Chakotay were not marooned on planet bonetown in Resolutions.

Janeway might have wanted a piece of that action, but Tuvix's katra driving Janeway's body didn't.

 

[Discofan]

But this is the fundamental problem here. It was not a clone, nor was it a child. It was the accidental combination of the DNA of three separate entities, and far more importantly, a combination of two separate, unwilling entities.

It had no claim to own those separate consciousnesses, it had no right to exist at other's expense. This is the point in it's entirety, and one you seem to be ignoring. It did not have the right to exist at the expense of Tuvok and Neelix. If it had been born, it would have the right to it's own self, but it was not.

Janeway did exactly the right thing. Her responsibility was to Tuvok and Neelix. Not to an aberration created by accident. At a time in history when accidents like this CAN happen, the rights belong to the accident victims, NOT the aberration. This is a reasonable interpretation, considering Tuvix to be same as Spock is not. This is the second thing you seem to be ignoring.

And, debates get heated. The fact that a debate gets heated is not a reason not to engage. You don't fool me. You don't have an argument to defend.

That same kind of reasoning could be used to argue that a child issued from rape has fewer rights than a child from a loving couple and I find that horrible. Janeway is bad in that episode but your "justification" makes her seem even worse. What kind of people decide that some people have more rights to exist than others? People who do ethnic cleansing, people who create extermination camps... THAT KIND OF PEOPLE!!! Tuvix has as many rights to exist as anybody else and is in no way responsible for the way he was born.

His genetic code makes him a Talaxian-Vulcan hybrid, just as Spock is a human-Vulcan hybrid. He was born adult? Well so were Data, Data's siblings and Data's mother, the Doctor, all the holograms encountered in the delta quadrant, Moriarty, the well-beloved Vic Fontaine!! not to mention Janeway's favorite Irish lover that she was willing to risk Tom's life to save, remember?

Seriously, in the ST world, Tuvix is almost banal!!!

 

[Prax]

There is no right or wrong answer here. That means Janeway wasn't right or wrong. It's either save Tuvok and Neelix, or save Tuvix. Janeway made the tough decision that she felt would be best for the ship and crew, which is her job as captain. There was never going to be a different outcome.

 

[Discofan]

There is no right or wrong answer here. That means Janeway wasn't right or wrong. It's either save Tuvok and Neelix, or save Tuvix. Janeway made the tough decision that she felt would be best for the ship and crew, which is her job as captain. There was never going to be a different outcome.

The problem is that the writers created a situation where the only possible outcome for the show turns Janeway into a monster. Janeway has lived for weeks with Tuvix and never developed a speck of empathy for him. She says "My tastebuds are definitely happy to have him around". That's what you say about a kitchen device, not a person!!! and because she's written as such a heartless monster she doesn't stop one second to think that the guy who's been around her for weeks, may want to LIVE. It comes to her as a surprise!!! What kind of person is so lacking in empathy? A psychopath!!!

 

[Gov Kodos]

The problem is that the writers created a situation where the only possible outcome for the show turns Janeway into a monster. Janeway has lived for weeks with Tuvix and never developed a speck of empathy for him. She says "My tastebuds are definitely happy to have him around". That's what you say about a kitchen device, not a person!!! and because she's written as such a heartless monster she doesn't stop one second to think that the guy who's been around her for weeks, may want to LIVE. It comes to her as a surprise!!! What kind of person is so lacking in empathy? A psychopath!!!

No.
The glitch got fixed.

 

[Prax]

The problem is that the writers created a situation where the only possible outcome for the show turns Janeway into a monster. Janeway has lived for weeks with Tuvix and never developed a speck of empathy for him. She says "My tastebuds are definitely happy to have him around". That's what you say about a kitchen device, not a person!!! and because she's written as such a heartless monster she doesn't stop one second to think that the guy who's been around her for weeks, may want to LIVE. It comes to her as a surprise!!! What kind of person is so lacking in empathy? A psychopath!!!

It comes as a surprise to everyone. She's not a monster in her log. She doesn't know how to feel about it, like any same person. Why does Archer get a pass for doing the same thing? Why is Similitude hailed as a great episode, yet this one so controversial? Archer is not at all indecisive like Janeway. He has a one track mind on his decision, and gets angry when "Sim" wants to live. Archer fully intends to kill Sim, and in this case, Sim is actually a separate entity.

Is there some emotional need to hate Janeway as a character? Someone please explain. I have the feeling that if Tuvix eventually did acquiesce, Janeway would still be called evil, and a monster, and whatever else.

It's the same case with episodes like Equinox. Janeway is called evil, and insane, and a murderer, but Sisko can do worse and it makes him a "badass." Even Archer can torture someone, threaten to kill them, and nobody complains.

 

[DonIago]

One would think that the current political climate in America, not to mention the historical record, would provide ample evidence of the dangers of dehumanizing a fellow individual.

 

[Discofan]

It comes as a surprise to everyone. She's not a monster in her log. She doesn't know how to feel about it, like any same person. Why does Archer get a pass for doing the same thing? Why is Similitude hailed as a great episode, yet this one so controversial? Archer is not at all indecisive like Janeway. He has a one track mind on his decision, and gets angry when "Sim" wants to live. Archer fully intends to kill Sim, and in this case, Sim is actually a separate entity.

Is there some emotional need to hate Janeway as a character? Someone please explain. I have the feeling that if Tuvix eventually did acquiesce, Janeway would still be called evil, and a monster, and whatever else.

It's the same case with episodes like Equinox. Janeway is called evil, and insane, and a murderer, but Sisko can do worse and it makes him a "badass." Even Archer can torture someone, threaten to kill them, and nobody complains.

I don't know where you get your "nobody complains" from as I for one do complain about those things but just because you criticize Janeway doesn't mean that you have to recapitulate everything about everyone or your critic is invalid.

When I say that Phlox has the morals of a Nazi doctor, do I see you, come to his rescue by saying that Janeway is no better? No, I don't and it's likely that I won't. What's good for the goose is also good for the gander.

 

[Prax]

I don't know where you get your "nobody complains" from as I for one do complain about those things but just because you criticize Janeway doesn't mean that you have to recapitulate everything about everyone or your critic is invalid.

When I say that Phlox has the morals of a Nazi doctor, do I see you, come to his rescue by saying that Janeway is no better? No, I don't and it's likely that I won't. What's good for the goose is also good for the gander.

I see these kinds of comments about Janeway all the time(Janeway's evil, Janeway's a monster, et al) Especially in regard to Tuvix and Equinox. Yes, I have seen all the complaints about Dear Doctor, but I have never seen a single complaint about Archer in "Similitude." And it's the only other Trek episode with an almost identical scenario to Tuvix. On the contrary, it's routinely praised and held up as one of the pinnacle episodes of that series.
That's why it is relevant.

I've always said that the writers in Similitude took the easy way out(compared to Tuvix)...but now I think Brannon Braga(or whomever) just realized that by having Sim ultimately sacrifice himself, no matter how intent Archer was on killing him, that shallow audiences would see it entirely differently, and the emotional response to the "noble self sacrifice would cancel out any budding outrage."

 

[DonIago]

I was under the impression that the general consensus is that "Tuvix" is a very good episode regardless of whether one agrees with Janeway's decision. Personally I think any episode that can engender this level of generally-thoughtful debate is probably one of the better ones.

 

[Discofan]

Not necessarily. I think "Dear Doctor" is a terrible episode.

 

[Prax]

I went to Jammer's reviews and looked up similitude. He rated it 2.5 stars(out of 4), and gave Tuvix 3 stars. I was surprised to see he was pretty harsh towards Similitude, and very positive towards Tuvix. Then I scrolled to the comments, and it was pretty negative. Most of the complaints we're about "cloned dna retaining memories," "The science is garbage!" Kinda stuff, but there were some that spoke of the ethical issues, and a couple that actually mentioned Archer's intention to murder Sim. I was shocked to see many comments referring to Tuvix as the far superior episode. And about a quarter of the comments were "4 stars! best Enterprise episode!"

So I was wrong about Similitude not ever being criticized. I just haven't seen it here, and it is always on every "top ten Enterprise episodes" lists.

The comments under the Tuvix review went on so long I didn't attempt to read them all. Possibly the longest comment chain of any Jammer review. There were about 5 different positions, all being intensely and heatedly debated. It's like a time capsule of ten years of arguing.
It felt very familiar.

 

[Discofan]

I think the problem is her deciding to execute Tuvix without consulting anybody else (except Kes who's a moron) and without even asking if there wasn't a way to save them all. Also not one guy on the bridge to say anything. They really looked like a bunch of assholes. At least some could have questioned Janeway's moral authority here. The death penalty is illegal in the federation so what Janeway has done is at the very least uncharted territory. The forced killing of an innocent person!!. The thing that really takes the cake though is when Naomi tells the story several years later as a pleasant anecdote. What kind of assholes would do that! I mean they don't even have the decency to admit that it was wrong after the facts.

 

[Guy Gardener]

There is no right or wrong answer here. That means Janeway wasn't right or wrong. It's either save Tuvok and Neelix, or save Tuvix. Janeway made the tough decision that she felt would be best for the ship and crew, which is her job as captain. There was never going to be a different outcome.

Kathryn was going to let Tuvix live, until a tearful Kes begged to have her boyfriend back, a man she had never made love to, that she dumps a couple episodes later.

Kes overestimated how much she loved Neelix and how much she wanted him to exist, and Tuvix paid the price with his life because a 2 year old didn't know what love is.