Were Tuvok and Neelix aware Janeway killed Tuvix?

[Jayson1]

Tuvix being "born" is nothing like a mom dying during childbirth, whatsoever. This is about as tortured and twisted an analogy as I've ever read. For one thing, the creation of a baby doesn't involve the utter destruction of two unknowing and unwilling participants. Even in your tortured example of the mother dying, that is a risk with every pregnancy, and a risk that is taken knowingly. Tuvix's "life"was STOLEN from Neelix and Tuvok by by the plant. It simply wasn't his to have.

A better analogy is: Imagine your kidneys, heart, arms and legs were stolen and implanted in someone else who didn't know where they came from. You wake up to find yourself being kept alive on machine, but will die soon. The authorities find out exactly what happened. The person didn't want to give them back, because they would die.

If it were me, I'd insist my parts be given back to me, and I hope some Janeway out there would help me get them back.

Well no analogy will be perfect due to how unique Tuvik's creation is. One could even argue the transporter is the mom and Tuvok and Neelix are both the dad and the sperm. It gets to a point were human metaphors will never do justice to the experience. I think the key is that Tuvik made memories of his own so we know he had his own personality. While he has Tuvok and Neelix's memories they are blended together to creates something new. There is more to life than raw data. Jason

 

[Tenacity]

WWAD?

What would Archer do? He would "put right what once went wrong."

If two of his crew were merged in a transporter accident, and Archer had the means to undo the accident, I believe he would.

I'm sure Kirk would too, and he would feel in every way that the decision he made was right.

Picard's ethics have always been a mystery from my perspective and it's hard to say what he would have done.

 

[Prax]

If it were me I would have fired Ethan Phillips and Tim Russ and continued the show with whoever played Tuvix with the recurrent joke of Tuvok and Neelix soon to be brought back.

That was never an option, though. Ethan Philips and Tim Russ were under contract. And if they had that option and kept Tuvix, these threads would still exist, with people lamenting "Janeway's barbaric decision to murder Neelix and Tuvok."

 

[jmidnight_99]

Well no analogy will be perfect due to how unique Tuvik's creation is. One could even argue the transporter is the mom and Tuvok and Neelix are both the dad and the sperm. It gets to a point were human metaphors will never do justice to the experience. I think the key is that Tuvik made memories of his own so we know he had his own personality. While he has Tuvok and Neelix's memories they are blended together to creates something new. There is more to life than raw data. Jason

ok but what about my scenario?

 

[jmidnight_99]

"Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its continuing mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before."

"Risk is our business!" - James T. Kirk.

And that's all I have to say about that.

That ain't no answer.

 

[jmidnight_99]

If any other of the captains had made this decision, no one here would bat an eye.

I never even thought of it that way.

 

[DonIago]

That ain't no answer.

Yes. It is.

Janeway and Friends murdered a new life form because it came at the expense of their two friends, who were on Voyager fully aware that what they'd signed on to might cost them their lives at some point, and arguably they were never killed to begin with in this case.

If the parents of a baby are killed in an accident, and you can kill the baby to restore the parents, do you?

 

[Vger23]

 

[jmidnight_99]

If a terrorist says: "Unless you kill person X, I will kill my ten hostages!"

Your opinion is tantamount to say it is OK to accede to the terrorist's demand because it will save nine people.

I am sorry but no ethical system in the civilized world says it is ok to execute one person in order to save several. It's just not acceptable. Sisko refused to let Kira die in order to save 8000 people. I doubt he would have accepted to be Tuvix' executioner, only Janeway could do something like that. No captain before her (or since) ever executed an innocent person, by his own hand at that!

But it's not the same thing. It's not sacrificing one life to save two. The problem these analogies completely miss is that there were two unwilling participants in the situation. The situation is like nothing that has ever happened, so you can't compare it to ending one life to save two in a terrorist attack, or using a baby to save two parents. Because In these cases everyone involved in the terrorist attack and the parents and the baby all have a right to their own lives. Tuvox's life wasn't his own, it belonged to Tuvok and Neelix. In a sense, he existed without their consent. A flower first made the choice for Tuvix to exist, then Tuvix tried to make it again. Problem is, it wasn't the flower's or Tuvix' choice to make. It was Tuvok and Neelix's choice, and the captain rightly acted in their best interest.

Tuvok and Neelix and a plant were turned into one being that had no right to exist. He had as much right to exist at the expense of Neelix and Tuvok as the captain had the right to separate them again. There is no malice in correcting a accident that never should have happened in the first place.

DS9 had a similar dilemma when they got stranded on that planet, and built a society there. They ran into all their descendants who told them when they tried to escape, there would be an accident and they would be flung X years into the past, and be stranded there on the planet forever. But wait... maybe Captain Sisko figures a way NOT to get flung back. What does he do? I think he chooses to let the accident happen. But there's a way out! Odo of the future is the bad guy and the whole thing never happened. Typical self-serving Odo.

They should have had Tuvix get seriously Ill, necessitating the split. Then everyone's conscience would be eased. Maybe that's how the 60's show would have gone.

But screw it. If I were Sisko, I would have got the hell out, and If I were Janeway I would have saved my friends and officers. There is no malice in saving yourself, and/or correcting a science fiction accident.

 

[DonIago]

"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end." - Spock

 

[Jayson1]

But it's not the same thing. It's not sacrificing one life to save two. The problem these analogies completely miss is that there were two unwilling participants in the situation. The situation is like nothing that has ever happened, so you can't compare it to ending one life to save two in a terrorist attack, or using a baby to save two parents. Because In these cases everyone involved in the terrorist attack and the parents and the baby all have a right to their own lives. Tuvox's life wasn't his own, it belonged to Tuvok and Neelix. In a sense, he existed without their consent. A flower first made the choice for Tuvix to exist, then Tuvix tried to make it again. Problem is, it wasn't the flower's or Tuvix' choice to make. It was Tuvok and Neelix's choice, and the captain rightly acted in their best interest.

Tuvok and Neelix and a plant were turned into one being that had no right to exist. He had as much right to exist at the expense of Neelix and Tuvok as the captain had the right to separate them again. There is no malice in correcting a accident that never should have happened in the first place.

DS9 had a similar dilemma when they got stranded on that planet, and built a society there. They ran into all their descendants who told them when they tried to escape, there would be an accident and they would be flung X years into the past, and be stranded there on the planet forever. But wait... maybe Captain Sisko figures a way NOT to get flung back. What does he do? I think he chooses to let the accident happen. But there's a way out! Odo of the future is the bad guy and the whole thing never happened. Typical self-serving Odo.

They should have had Tuvix get seriously Ill, necessitating the split. Then everyone's conscience would be eased. Maybe that's how the 60's show would have gone.

But screw it. If I were Sisko, I would have got the hell out, and If I were Janeway I would have saved my friends and officers. There is no malice in saving yourself, and/or correcting a science fiction accident.

But ever death is unwilling unless it's suicide. I think your saying they were in a state of limbo while in Tuvik but I feel they were dead and Tuvik was greated out of what was left. A way was found in essence to cheat death but to do it you have to kill a sentient being. Once dead Tuvok and Neelix no longer have claim over old dna because not only are they are dead but Tuvix's body isn't even the same because of the mix bonding. Jason

 

[jmidnight_99]

But ever death is unwilling unless it's suicide. I think your saying they were in a state of limbo while in Tuvik but I feel they were dead and Tuvik was greated out of what was left. A way was found in essence to cheat death but to do it you have to kill a sentient being. Once dead Tuvok and Neelix no longer have claim over old dna because not only are they are dead but Tuvix's body isn't even the same because of the mix bonding. Jason

I'm saying that the moment they figured out how to separate them, they wee OBLIGATED to separate them. Because allowing Tuvix to continue to exist would now be at Neelix and Tuvok's expense.

They didn't "kill" a sentient being, they separated an accident into the two distinct personalities from which it was made up. There was no Tuvix. There was only the result of an accident complaining that it had the "right" to exist. It didn't.

Do you understand that there was no death involved? Tuvix thought he had the right to exist as a combination of Neelix and Tuvok. Wrong. They had the right to exist as individuals, He didn't have the right to exist as an unwilling combination of the two..

 

[Guy Gardener]

In shattered, Chakotay gives a speech about how much B'Elanna grows as a person and becomes Janeway's chief engineer... And dates Tom? What Chuckles should have said was "oh that dead woman, ignore her, 3 months in, and she gets replaced with a transporter clone that is so much easier to get along with."

All Tuvix had to do to live was to erase the Doctor.

Tuvok was not healthy.

He was slowly going batshit.

The Doctor knew about this, well before they told us about it in Endgame.

Rebuilding Tuvix might have been a cure.

Or at least a form of stasis so that They had a Security Chief, who was not getting a little dumber every day, who would have been in a state to be cured, when they got home, if Tuvix was willing to get knocked off again.

 

[Prax]

Is Belanna a transporter clone? Is everyone who has ever used a transporter actually a clone of a clone of a clone?

 

[DonIago]

I'm saying that the moment they figured out how to separate them, they wee OBLIGATED to separate them. Because allowing Tuvix to continue to exist would now be at Neelix and Tuvok's expense.

They didn't "kill" a sentient being, they separated an accident into the two distinct personalities from which it was made up. There was no Tuvix. There was only the result of an accident complaining that it had the "right" to exist. It didn't.

Do you understand that there was no death involved? Tuvix thought he had the right to exist as a combination of Neelix and Tuvok. Wrong. They had the right to exist as individuals, He didn't have the right to exist as an unwilling combination of the two..

It must be nice to be so confident that Tuvix was "only the result of an accident" that you're willing to overlook the possibility that separating him is in fact murder.

What if you're wrong?

 

[Vger23]

It must be nice to be so confident that Tuvix was "only the result of an accident" that you're willing to overlook the possibility that separating him is in fact murder.

What if you're wrong?

Taking life is taking life, right? What difference does it make how it was conceived?

 

[DonIago]

I think you're preaching to the choir here.

But some posters seem to be expressing the viewpoint that Tuvix wasn't ever actually "alive", so separating him isn't "killing" him.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Is Belanna a transporter clone? Is everyone who has ever used a transporter actually a clone of a clone of a clone?

In early season one, Faces, B'Elanna was split into two, a full human and a full Klingon. The Klingon was Murdered through misadventure, and the human after she was safe on Voyager, started to get sick. She was dosed with anonymous Klingon DNA, not left over corpse tissue from her double, there was no "integration", so B'Elanna seemed to be a 50/50 hybrid again, and healthy even though the new real ratio of Klingon:Human raging on inside the woman, can't even have been close to what it was.

Notice the eyebrows.

 

[Vger23]

I think you're preaching to the choir here.

But some posters seem to be expressing the viewpoint that Tuvix wasn't ever actually "alive", so separating him isn't "killing" him.

Oh absolutely...it was my subtle way of expressing full agreement with what you said!

 

[Guy Gardener]

In Resolutions, Kes kept showing up in Captain Tuvok's quarters just before bed time.

Did she owe him, for bringing back Neelix?