Just like TOS did.
Was TNG less progressive than TOS?
- Thread starter Orphalesion
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The problem with that is that, well, we're supposed to be over it by then and it's mostly always been depicted that way right back to TOS.
In a TOS episode the crew meets a recreation of Lincoln who greets Uhura as a "stunning nigress" and then corrects himself on using such a term, it being a product of his time and that he simply was trying to say she was a beautiful woman. Uhura is lost at this! She doesn't know to be offended she actually laughs and she and Kirk explain she has no problem who she is, that she's just as capable as anyone else and that humanity doesn't worry about that kind of stuff anymore. It's supposed to show humanity, all of humanity, had gotten over it. Black people were no longer upset over it and white people were no longer ashamed of it. (As much right as both, today, have to be. Particularly the black people.)
You could argue this is a more disturbing product of the time the show was made and it's even reflected today in aspects of society where people say, "If we just get over it we can all move on and be happy." When, come on, they have a LOT to be upset about and continue to to this day.
But the ideal future is what we see in TNG everyone has gotten past it and perfect equality is achieved.
But, here's Sisko, pouting in his room because the unfair holodeck program set 300 years ago isn't accurate when it's supposed to just be an entertainment program centered around Vic and not an accurate representation of 1960s Earth and the social politics of the time.
Granted, his mood could be someone influenced by the prophet vision he has as a oppressed writer living in mid-20th century Earth so his experiences with the segregation and racial politics of the time are fresher.
I always found the various holodeck recreations of things like Vic to be problematic in this context as well. And I think there is no contradiction between the Uhura smiling over Licoln's language and Sikso (rightfully) complaining about the Vic Fontaine program.
One shows that the word doesn't have power anymore because it belongs to a bygone era humanity has managed to resolve and move past.
The other shows objection to a glorification of such an era.
I think it's perfectly possible that Uhura might have reacted similarly to Sisko if her shipmates had dragged her into a "fun" recreation of the Antebellum South, for example that shows it as a "fairy tale country of fair ladies and gallant kngihts" ala Gone with the Wind.
It’s 1987/88 and there’s a female character *in charge* of weapons, not just handing the boys their missions or holding their coats. On TV. There are action figures. I think for the time, and for its niche, it’s pretty good. We can mutter all we like about some of the season one weirdness, but no character comes out of that looking good. I think... I would give it a pass. Doctor Crusher? She’s a mum, but she’s a mum who saves the day by curing space lurg, with science. Troi’s a different matter...but...she and Data are basically the only ‘characters with superpowers’...actually Geordi as well. Now, superpowers aren’t exactly a Trek thing, but in terms of ‘kids’ TV which TNG almost uniquely for Trek was (at least in part of its intended audience from day one) that’s a big thing.
Like I say, I think it’s very much about how you approach it.
Aliens, GI Joe (Scarlett and Lady Jane), Thundercats, Fraggle Rock, Metroid, Voltron, Super Friends, He-man, She-ra. These are just franchises off the top of my head with women in the same or better positions and they all did it first. All had action figures. That’s just following the pack, which Gene admitted he was doing. Yar was created because he though Vasquez “created a whole new style of feminine beauty”. Not power or authority. Beauty. Vazquez gave him a pants tent so he wanted the same thing on his show. People keep making excuses for something Gene laid out really plainly in his own words.
We can definitely agree on that.
Hindsight is 20/20. Crosby made a decision that, at the time, was right for her. Also, TNG in its bible and conception was meant to be more of ensemble show unlike TOS with its two main characters... well three after Kelly was added to the opening credits.
Also TV drama at that time had already moved away from the singular lead and toward larger casts with multiple storylines per episodes (see Hill Street Blues, LA Law, St. Elsewhere). So Crosby's expectations weren't unfounded.
In fact, TNG was a throwback to a format of television that was beginning to be replaced.
Well it did evolve into a proper ensemble show by Season 3 and one of the most awkward things about Season 1 is that it very much feels like a 1960s show.
But yeah Denise Crosby couldn't have possibly known that the writing would improve as much as it did.
Good point, and I'll say the concept from Savage Curtain is very forward thinking. I would even call it a genus concept. It's hard to argue with the logic of it.
With that said, it can be argued that just being disturbed by the time period itself is enough to justify why Sisko wouldn't want to participate, and feels uncomfortable when he sees other people are.
Just studying history or reading history books or biographies can be enough to make a person disgusted at a time period. You don't really need an alien induced vision.
The simple fact is, when he thinks of the time setting of the casino and sees the people, the decor, he associates it with the actual, real ugly history that it was based on.
He's not regressing backwards- he's an (relatively) enlightened 24th century human expressing disdain at a specific time period when black americans were treated badly.
If anything it shows empathy-- perhaps he felt guilty seeing a gambling adventure set during a time he knows was hard for his ancestors, or just that it was an awkward cos playing subject, given the background.
If Professor Gill (Patterns of Force) had the same attitude about the mid 20th century, he may have avoided the catastrophe that almost killed millions and ultimately cost him his own life.
Ironically, TOS (progressively) acknowledged it for what is was, by condemning Gill for ignoring the real aspects of history.
Good point, again.
Conceivably, someone could invite her to "romantic" recreation of the antebellum south where she could wear the finest dress, and pretend to be a southern bell waiting for her hero to sweep her off her feet.
According to how some interpret human progress in Trek, she's from an enlightened society from the future so far distanced from that history that she should not be bothered by it. But, if she has any inkling of history, or that time period, she would probably refuse or at the very least, feel awkward. No matter how much you tweak the program or setting.
Funny thing but a lot earlier, when drunk Sulu grabs her and calls her a "fair maiden" Uhura responded, "Sorry, neither!" Something changed quickly.
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If Sisko wanted historical accuracy, he could have walked out the doors of the pretend casino that Vic worked at and a surprisingly short distance off the Vegas strip found a club with a exclusively Black clientele. And there would be music, socializing and dancing.
But let's be honest, most of Sisko's friends wouldn't have been welcome there.
But let's be honest, most of Sisko's friends wouldn't have been welcome there.
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Most likely those clubs came into existence because their black clientele were exclusively rejected at the other casinos and clubs in the first place.
Which represents a major difference between practicing deliberate caste based discrimination and looking for acceptance somewhere.
The whole concept opens up a can of worms.
The very idea that the programmers or the users had to remove certain historical accuracies means they had to recognize that the era was so offensive, the users would be too offended to participate in it if it wasn't.
Or that if humans in Sisko's time are genuinely over racism or bigotry and not affected it, then why remove any offensive historical accuracy at all? Theoretically they shouldn't be bothered by it?
The more this is analyzed, the more it points to Sisko's point that it wasn't exactly a pleasant era for certain people.
I once showed one of my grandparents a (different) episode with Vic in it. Because she enjoyed that style of music, and she had been in clubs (for hispanics) from that time period.
She commented on the absence of "the cloud." She said that the cigarette smoke would have been so dense that the stage would have been slightly obscured to people seated at the bar, only twenty some feet away.
I wonder what the DS9 people would have thought of the cloud if it were present.
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Now pick ones that are (a) on TV (b) live action and (c) family range. Mum and Dad aren’t going to sit through a Saturday cartoon, and little Johnny and Jemima aren’t meant to be watching Aliens. Besides which, Vasquez is a side part. Films are not TV shows in reach and influence...I also suspect the ‘Aliens’ action figures is a thing much later than the films. I also know that many of those Franchises are in no way comparable things (Fraggle Rock? Seriously?)
Siscos issues with Vics got me thinking was there ever a holodeck adventure with Miles and Julian that could have caused problems between them. I can think of the battles of Britain, Clontarf, Thermopylae and the Alamo which all should be fine but can't think of any others
You’re trying to arbitrarily limit the conditions
in order to negate me. Next you’ll want we to find ones that only aired on alternating Tuesdays. Sorry, but cartoons in the 80s had more progressive roles for women than TNG. And they had girl toys that I owned and played with. Sucks but true. Oh, and Ripley was the star of the Alien films, not Vazquez. You erased a woman. Not that it matters since Yar wasn’t anymore of a lead role that Vazquez was.
I ‘erased’ naff all. Much of the discussion around Aliens in relation to TNG is the influence of Vasquez, and ‘Aliens’ is the film which you mentioned...in which she is the only female character introduced for that film. Ripley, as is well known, was introduced in the first film but written as possibly cast for either gender. It’s the second film that definable writes Ripley as a female character (a mum!).
And I am not limiting arbitrarily, I am suggesting to compare like with like as much as conceivably possible. Saturday morning cartoons in the era are great, wonderful writing, but much of that is secondary to shifting toys. As I point out, even raising Fraggle Rock clearly shows that we are talking about apples and oranges. I doubt Red and Mokey are going to be written about as cultural icons of female emancipation by anyone not having a laugh but what the hey. From my perspective, there was never any ‘huh look, women as good as men, women in charge of something!’ Because for me in my time and place that was the status quo from my perspective (whatever was going on behind the scenes, we had a woman queen, a woman prime minister, all my teachers were women, I grew up in a household of mostly women, etc etc etc....even on TV for me women were leading characters with no real sense of hierarchy, let alone patriarchy.) aka ‘normal’.
In terms of sitting Trek next to its peers? Well. We can talk about Wilma Deering from a few years earlier I guess, but all those ‘man/men with a mission of the week’ things that sprung up in the time period basically had glorified secretaries with the occasional ‘surprise, this week the lady saves the day’ episode when they needed a spot to fill. Even the infamous conversation between Yar and Troi in Code of Honour was pretty groundbreaking in its own clumsy way by the standards of the day. Not that I would have noticed it much at the time lol.
Anyway, yeah.
Erased.
Hilarious.
It’s on,y just really popped into my head that Troi is basically in the Bones role when you think about it.Thats definitely a step up from answering the phone.
I definitely agree with your revision plan, and your overall gist... but I am not 100 percent that American audiences/producers would read Troi as ‘white’. Especially not with how exoticised she is, and her ‘deaf’ accent in full force. Lwxana muddies the waters mind you, on both scores.
I mentioned that Aliens had better female roles as a contemporary of TNG. And by 1992 there were many toys of the movie with Ripley having the most variants besides the alien. You’re putting more arbitrary limitations to secure your point.
You picked the example you think you have the best chance of ridiculing and dismissing. Erased the others. In 1983 Teela was captain of the royal guard serving a bigger role than Yar in the most popular toy franchise and cartoon of the time. GI Joe had major women characters in active combat and command roles in 1982. Samus Aran was the lead of a soon to be enormous video game franchise in 1986. Genre had already staked a claim on tough women by the time Gene started talking about TNG. Before that Trek’s biggest new female character was a hyper sexualized alien turned robot in plastic high heals.
And you think Tasha Yar is?
I honestly, no trolling, don’t understand the point you’re trying to make with this entire anecdote.
What conversation? Where Troi tells her she has the hots for Lutan? What could you find ground breaking about that?
I think you’re buying into Star Trek exceptionalism, which a media full of trekkies has been pumping us full of for years. Trek didn’t break much ground in the 60’s or the 80’s. It followed a lot of trends that were becoming popular and it often fell behind its peers. Just because you like a show best doesn’t mean it did everything the best.
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Something I've also thought about is...was even TOS less progressive than it liked to think?
I mean yeah the 1960s were a time when it still wasn't that uncommon for the principal cast of a show to be all male, but at the same time shows like the Avengers existed, where the female agents was just as capable as the male ones (if also there for fanservice)
I mean yeah the 1960s were a time when it still wasn't that uncommon for the principal cast of a show to be all male, but at the same time shows like the Avengers existed, where the female agents was just as capable as the male ones (if also there for fanservice)
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