Was TNG less progressive than TOS?
- Thread starter Orphalesion
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How so? Crosby request to be released from her contract because she wasn't being given enough to do, not because she was getting prominent roles.
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I think he meant that her one big episode was that woeful mess
Exactly. Maybe I should have been clearer, but I thought how bad this episode was a well-know fact (yes, I know, we can't say that opinions are "facts", but whatever) .
Same saw it first as a child who had no interaction with black people and I just thought it looked very lacking in imagination and production. I got through about 2 minutes of it on my first TNG rewatch in years a few months ago. God if you told a friend now to watch TNG and that was the first thing they saw you would not ever be allowed speak to that friend again it's so shockingly bad with the stereotypes
Man. The Code of Honour debate.
That thing where people saw an ‘African Society’ that bore zero resemblance to Africa, alien world with a matriarchy etc. Were the Edo some kind of problem too? Code of Honor looked like everyone had come dressed for an Aladdin pantomime. Fairs fair though, the same people who hold strong opinions on it probably also had strong opinions about the blonde haired bread makers in Insurrection.
(Oh, and I saw it as kid who grew up surrounded by loads of people from different places, but particularly Afro-Caribbean people, all the time. I don’t remember anyone thinking it was rascist, but I was young. *shrug*)
Yar had about the same amount of screen time and story beats as the other second stringers in season one. And I think more than some. Some episodes it’s difficult to identify ‘this is an x character story’ because a lot lean to ensemble to try and work out who is doing what, and to show off the new characters.
That thing where people saw an ‘African Society’ that bore zero resemblance to Africa, alien world with a matriarchy etc. Were the Edo some kind of problem too? Code of Honor looked like everyone had come dressed for an Aladdin pantomime. Fairs fair though, the same people who hold strong opinions on it probably also had strong opinions about the blonde haired bread makers in Insurrection.
(Oh, and I saw it as kid who grew up surrounded by loads of people from different places, but particularly Afro-Caribbean people, all the time. I don’t remember anyone thinking it was rascist, but I was young. *shrug*)
Yar had about the same amount of screen time and story beats as the other second stringers in season one. And I think more than some. Some episodes it’s difficult to identify ‘this is an x character story’ because a lot lean to ensemble to try and work out who is doing what, and to show off the new characters.
Absolutely. But Code of Honor was the closest thing in season 1 to a "Tasha Yar-centered story" (and it sucked).
No major disagreement, but it’s hard to find a complete season one episode that *didnt* suck. There’s bits that are good in the suckiest, and the best episodes have bits of sheer cringe inducement in. But that’s series one for you.
Code of Honor - never considered it racist, since it reflects black people just as Justice reflects white people, which is not at all.
Perhaps someone can tell me what is racist about it? Is it the black man wants white woman thing? Does that hit some old nerve of 'lock up your daughters from the big black dude'? Mmmmmm?
Perhaps someone can tell me what is racist about it? Is it the black man wants white woman thing? Does that hit some old nerve of 'lock up your daughters from the big black dude'? Mmmmmm?
I think that’s precisely what it is. I think that’s why the ‘he’s a bit of alright’ conversation between Deanna and Yar gets ignored particularly, and sometimes, just sometimes, it smells a bit of complaining there’s too many dark skinned fellas on the screen, so let’s cover it with complaints the culture wasn’t mixed enough.
For the record, even at eight, I thought the ligonian matriarch...Yareena? I think that’s her name, was well fit.
And those Sky laser beams were at amazing effect for eighties TV.
But *shrug* different folks have diff’rent strokes.
Yes.
Too cheeky?
Too stupid.
Last hurrah of sixties ‘the god was a computer Trek, and a subtle allegory...or not so subtle...about how much people are willing to surrender if they don’t have to work or think too hard?
I mean...this is early TNG.
I mean, that's fair but they are still stupid. The TNG crew comes across as rather odd too.
Regardless, of the two, I regard "Code of Honor" to be better than the Edo episode.
Intriguing. I agree. There’s decent ideas, ideas that possibly belong to the series they started making as opposed to the one it became (space is bigger here than in later episodes, time to get supplies from planet a to b is a factor in a way that only pops up a couple of times later -or so it feels, I am largely remembering Brothers - and the civilisation is (a) not the federation but (b) has something the federation doesn’t, and needs. For all it’s reputation, it *does* refute gunboat diplomacy, and takes a different tack. It has the matriarchal society and seems to have grown out of someone watching Amok Time rather a lot without being an immediately obvious retread (as opposed to The Naked Now, Which at least tells you what it is) and is that kind of borderline ‘heavy’ SF that TNG started as aiming for.
Edo? I remember arsecheeks and Wesley being daft. That’s...not a lot.
I like Code of Honor but it is racist and bad. Tasha Yar is inexplicably attracted to her asshole kidnapper. The aliens are both sophisticated enough to have their own transporters yet superstitious enough to think the holodeck creates ghosts, and primitive enough to use blood sport to settle arguments, and so jaded to violence no one reacts when someone dies except to click sticks. Good on them for crating an interesting mix of characteristics especially ones outside the average American experience but it inadvertently leans hard on bigotry of black=socially primitive/violent/seeking white women.
I love comparing it to Black Panther which is like a huge version of Code of Honor done right. They have their legacy of tribalism and ancient violent succession right, except it has obviously evolved into a joyous perfunctory ceremony where no one really expects to die or kill. When someone actually uses the ceremony as originally intended in ancient times most of them are shocked and disgusted, it divides the nation, and throws everything into chaos. They’re also as non-superstitious as one would assume given their level of extreme sophistication. Also they don’t require outside intervention from white heroes of greater sophistication culture and bearing.
I love comparing it to Black Panther which is like a huge version of Code of Honor done right. They have their legacy of tribalism and ancient violent succession right, except it has obviously evolved into a joyous perfunctory ceremony where no one really expects to die or kill. When someone actually uses the ceremony as originally intended in ancient times most of them are shocked and disgusted, it divides the nation, and throws everything into chaos. They’re also as non-superstitious as one would assume given their level of extreme sophistication. Also they don’t require outside intervention from white heroes of greater sophistication culture and bearing.
Is not ‘the holodeck creates ghosts’ just a version of the moriarty/emh debate in a way? (And of course Hollywood repeating its own tropes and odd beliefs as you say, between this and the ‘counting coup’ the episode is actually being shite about Native Americans)
Everything else is exactly the same as Amok Time, putting the Ligonians on a par with Vulcan. Tasha finds her asshole kidnapper attractive *before* he kidnaps her, (and how many times is someone ‘kidnapped’ by aliens in Trek, before revealing the kidnappers to be alright after all? Usually with a ‘you’re a nice person, but in my culture we send an invitation rather than use a transporter...except all those times we don’t’ Q does it almost every time he turns up, and there’s probably a class on it at Starfleet medical.) and I can’t imagine why someone from a failed colony could possibly be attracted to someone presented as the ruler of a planet stable enough to be traded with on equal terms with the Federation, ignoring of course any physical attraction... Basically, Code of Honour, if it swapped guest cast with planet of th Californian Spa Authority, would not raise any eyebrows. The idea that the Ligonians in any way resemble African Tribes is based entirely on skin colour, from a culture whose main source of information on Africa was an Eddie Murphy film (itself with more than a few problems.) I think overall it says more to the associations hardwired by Hollywood, especially given the number of ‘primitive tribal cultures’ that crop out throughout Trek with nary a raised eyebrow. Perhaps it is worth thinking about the portrayal of non-human species in Trek in general, especially when Trek uses them as allegory so often.
As to comparing it to Black Panther... well, I can’t comment. It’s one of the Marvel films I haven’t watched yet, mostly because I was an X+Men comics kid, and T’Challa without the possibility of Storm made me a little sad. (I never managed to get through the Captain America films, despite being surprised by enjoying films based on characters I usually find dull...specifically Thor and Iron Man.)
It's alot of little things out together that make Code look wrong. For instance if you gave the Ligonians the Edo planet and Edo clothes it would look an awful lot less like "TNG goes to Africa planet"
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