USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?

[Timo]

The Federation was facing down the threat of a massive Romulan ship invading their space. Sure, keep building ships the same size makes perfect sense.

Except not. The ship that originally faced this Romulan threat was already big. And the ships of 2258 showed no sign of having been designed to meet the Romulan threat - indeed, Starfleet's foremost expert on that threat, commanding the newest big ship, did not believe in the threat in the first place.

Plenty of other reasons to build big, and small, and red, and conical. We just have to accept we won't get a definite list of reasons for building those, or for failing to build those. But we aren't Starfleet, so that goes without saying.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[STR]

Didn't have a problem with the larger size of the JJPrise. The details only have a fixed scale based on previous expectations.

Agree with the first sentence, more or less. Reboot the ship? Reboot the scale. Hard disagree on the second. Good visual designs clearly indicate scale, using human sized details. The JJprise used human-scaled features (deck spacing, window sizes, exterior hatches) like all previous Enterprises (and sci-fi ships in general). The problem was that those details were scaled to a 1200' ship. When they doubled up, you end up with things the look like hatches, but are 8m tall, so clearly aren't hatches anymore. You have windows only on every other deck.

Does that ruin the movies? No (but the writing might have, ha!). It's just poor application.

 

[Manchester]

Agree with the first sentence, more or less. Reboot the ship? Reboot the scale. Hard disagree on the second. Good visual designs clearly indicate scale, using human sized details. The JJprise used human-scaled features (deck spacing, window sizes, exterior hatches) like all previous Enterprises (and sci-fi ships in general). The problem was that those details were scaled to a 1200' ship. When they doubled up, you end up with things the look like hatches, but are 8m tall, so clearly aren't hatches anymore. You have windows only on every other deck.

Does that ruin the movies? No (but the writing might have, ha!). It's just poor application.

Starship sizes have always been inconsistent. The JJPrise being the biggest (no pun intended) example.

 

[fireproof78]

Except not. The ship that originally faced this Romulan threat was already big. And the ships of 2258 showed no sign of having been designed to meet the Romulan threat - indeed, Starfleet's foremost expert on that threat, commanding the newest big ship, did not believe in the threat in the first place.

More to the point that Starfleet didn't feel the need to down size after the Kelvin incident.

And that's a rather surface level analysis of Pike's skepticism of the nature of the threat. Also, Pike's skepticism does not mean all of Starfleet or that the Constitution class was not designed to address larger threats, as evidenced by Marcus' own line of thought in ST ID.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

The ship that originally faced this Romulan threat was already big

Several of the ships destroyed at Vulcan looked to be considerably *larger* than the Enterprise, too - if we assume that these ships were contemporary with the Kelvin herself, then Starfleet had a dubious flirtation with massive ships in the mid-23rd century.

More to the point that Starfleet didn't feel the need to down size after the Kelvin incident.

Not much, anyway. Enterprise looks a bit smaller than the Vulcan fleet - but maybe that’s advances in technology - multitronics and such - making the overall ship smaller?

And that's a rather surface level analysis of Pike's skepticism of the nature of the threat.

That’s true - didn’t Pike want Kirk to join Starfleet because he admired Kirk Sr. and wanted to go into situations with a “look before you leap” mentality?

 

[fireproof78]

That’s true - didn’t Pike want Kirk to join Starfleet because he admired Kirk Sr. and wanted to go into situations with a “look before you leap” mentality?

He certainly admire George's attitude that's for sure. He used it to inspire Kirk to join up to become better, and maybe even work to the betterment of humanity, or some nonsense like that

 

[STR]

Starship sizes have always been inconsistent. The JJPrise being the biggest (no pun intended) example.

In absolute or relative terms? In relative terms, I think the ~400% variance in Klingon birds of prey still wins. Though, that design had few human-scale features, so they could get away with it better.

 

[Tuskin38]

The Defiant also has crazy scale issues.

 

[Manchester]

In absolute or relative terms? In relative terms, I think the ~400% variance in Klingon birds of prey still wins. Though, that design had few human-scale features, so they could get away with it better.

I'd totally forgot about the Bird of Prey.

 

[Kemaiku]

Yeah, where they invented the B'rell and K'vort classes to imply they used the same design, scaled up without any changes to about 5 or 6 times bigger for no reason.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

The Defiant also has crazy scale issues.

Not to mention inconsistent decks (there... are... FOUR... decks!!!), a bizzarre MSD on the bridge, no possible way for it to dock nose first on the outer docking ring (why didn’t they use a pylon for that?) and she’s basically an upscaled runabout with consoles that mirror the shape of the nacelles either side of the captains chair so the sisko is literally embodying the ship giving it anthropomorphic properties...

But I still love that tough little ship

 

[Timo]

More to the point that Starfleet didn't feel the need to down size after the Kelvin incident.

And indeed probably never did, in any universe. After all, the DSC ships are about the same size as the Kelvin, even if the size manifests differently.

And that's a rather surface level analysis of Pike's skepticism of the nature of the threat. Also, Pike's skepticism does not mean all of Starfleet or that the Constitution class was not designed to address larger threats, as evidenced by Marcus' own line of thought in ST ID.

Larger threats, perhaps - but not the Narada specifically. If the latest batch of ships had been built with this past threat specifically in mind, this would have manifested somehow in the movie: Pike confidently telling his cadet crew "We can handle this - we were built for this!", the Enterprise actually doing better than the Kelvin, something along those lines.

The timelines clearly are different: in Kelvinworld, the Romulans are already back in 2258 somehow. And perhaps giant threats such as the Space Amoeba or the DDM have already been encountered, driving the Build Big Movement. But all of that still appears standard fare for Star Trek: only the names and exact looks of the big threats vary from timeline to timeline. So DSC is entitled to its big ships, too. Including ones predating the 2233 Kelvin rift. Statistically, there's little wrong with us not seeing the biggies in, say, TOS.

Yeah, where they invented the B'rell and K'vort classes to imply they used the same design, scaled up without any changes to about 5 or 6 times bigger for no reason.

Then again, real world ships are like that, too: you can't really tell a container or bulk ship apart from another thrice the size by looks alone. And warships are more or less the same: a destroyer and a battleship can only be told apart by specific counting of the smokestacks and guesstimating how many calibers long the main guns are.

Not to mention inconsistent decks (there... are... FOUR... decks!!!)

Well, there are at least six, and nobody says otherwise. We just see a conflicting MSD.

no possible way for it to dock nose first on the outer docking ring

Why not? That part of the ship is especially (and uniquely) "fitting". It's more distressing to see a Miranda attempt that in "Way of the Warrior"!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tuskin38]

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/defiant-problems.htm

Great article on the Defiant inconsistencies.

 

[Manchester]

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/defiant-problems.htm

Great article on the Defiant inconsistencies.

They also have a great article on the JJPrise inconsistencies.

 

[Tuskin38]

They also have a great article on the JJPrise inconsistencies.

Yeah but that one is pretty bias.

 

[Mudd]

The hypothesized deck spacing on the TOS ship made so sense.

Saucer window spacing on the TMP ship makes for deck heights of less than seven feet.

So much for that.

 

[Tuskin38]

The hypothesized deck spacing on the TOS ship made so sense.

If the TOS Connie's deck heights matched the set heights, it would be in the 400 meters range, not 289m.

 

[Rahul]

In absolute or relative terms? In relative terms, I think the ~400% variance in Klingon birds of prey still wins. Though, that design had few human-scale features, so they could get away with it better.

I always gave the BoP a pass, because that was a budget issue: They simply needed new klingon ships for TNG, and didn't have the money (or experience) to fastly build a new model. And it was either the D7 or the BoP they could re-use. As soon as they built their first 24th century klingon ship (the Vor'cha), they used that, and we never saw upscaled BoPs again.

It's the same reason I give a pass for the D7 appearing on the third episode of ENT: Once they had a klingon design for the 22nd century, they used that one. But if simply the money isn't there to design a new ship - or the time needed to rewrite the script - re-using old models is fair enough IMO.

 

[Rahul]

If the TOS Connie's deck heights matched the set heights, it would be in the 400 meters range, not 289m.

It IS in the 400m range.
Everything supports that, from the deck plans fitting the shape, to the surface details of the ship, to how humans in spacesuits are scaled to it (in TMP), and DIS pretty much makes it official now.

The only reason for the 289m-fuss is an early, arbitrary non-canon Jeffries sketch, where the saucer still was only one(!) level high (not the two-levels it had on the show), and that a lot of books and technical manuals (all non-canon!) simply ran with that number without realizing it was from a design period where the Enterprise was intended to be much smaller.

 

[Gonzo]

It IS in the 400m range.
Everything supports that, from the deck plans fitting the shape, to the surface details of the ship, to how humans in spacesuits are scaled o it (in TMP), and DIS pretty much makes it official now.

The only reason for the 289m-fuss is an early, arbitrary non-canon Jeffries sketch, where the saucer still was only one(!) level high (not the two-levels it had on the show), and that a lot of books and technical manuals (all non-canon!) simply ran with that number without realizing it was from a design period where the Enterprise was intended to be much smaller.

It made a lot more sense at 400m as well.