Unseen TOS....

[drt]

Franz Joseph gave us a scout class Starfleet vessel that was still quite sizeable given it used a same/similar saucer main hull as the Constitution-class.

While I love the FJ ships (after spending almost 50 years with them, yikes!), I'm not sure I would let those designs influence what is considered a scout class ship. From the few usages in TOS, scouts seemed to be relatively small ships.

For what it's worth, I think the Saladin is a great destroyer, but I don't think deleting a couple of phaser banks and the torpedo tubes is enough of a change to really be a completely different class.

 

[Warped9]

While I love the FJ ships (after spending almost 50 years with them, yikes!), I'm not sure I would let those designs influence what is considered a scout class ship. From the few usages in TOS, scouts seemed to be relatively small ships.

For what it's worth, I think the Saladin is a great destroyer, but I don't think deleting a couple of phaser banks and the torpedo tubes is enough of a change to really be a completely different class.

True. I was just using that as a yard stick to stir the thought process.

 

[Henoch]

I'll just add that it can't be too small. They were able to establish a full-size Klingon garrison planetside. Complete with a munitions dump.

We have nothing on Klingon ship that attacked the Enterprise at the beginning of the episode:

SULU: Captain, the automatic deflector screen just popped on. Body approaching.
KIRK: Configuration, Mister Sulu.
(Everyone is thrown about as the Enterprise is hit by multiple weapons fire.)
KIRK: Phaser banks, lock on. Return fire. Maintain firing rate. One hundred percent dispersal pattern.
SPOCK: We've hit him, Captain. He's hurt.
KIRK: Damage control, report to the first officer.
SULU: Captain, the other ship doesn't register. Only drifting debris. We got him.

The Klingon ship doesn't seem that powerful (or "big"): it somehow approached/ambushed the Enterprise with minimal detection (how does it get a jump on the Enterprise? Was it cloaked or just warped in at high speed?); hits the Enterprise with a salvo of photon torpedoes?; then was quickly destroyed by only one phaser barrage (similar to Balance of Terror burst phasers used against a cloaked ship). Secondly, when the Enterprise arrives at Organia, there is no invasion/assault fleet or garrison yet, suggesting that the attacking Klingon ship was not part of the invasion fleet. An advance scout class ship, very fast or possibly cloaked, seems appropriate.

 

[blssdwlf]

We have nothing on Klingon ship that attacked the Enterprise at the beginning of the episode:

The Klingon ship doesn't seem that powerful (or "big"): it somehow approached/ambushed the Enterprise with minimal detection (how does it get a jump on the Enterprise? Was it cloaked or just warped in at high speed?); hits the Enterprise with a salvo of photon torpedoes?; then was quickly destroyed by only one phaser barrage (similar to Balance of Terror burst phasers used against a cloaked ship). Secondly, when the Enterprise arrives at Organia, there is no invasion/assault fleet or garrison yet, suggesting that the attacking Klingon ship was not part of the invasion fleet. An advance scout class ship, very fast or possibly cloaked, seems appropriate.

We do know that a single Klingon Battlecruiser is no match for the Enterprise (see "Elaan of Troyius"). That would suggest that whatever was destroyed by the Enterprise was a battlecruiser or lower.
The use of the proximity phasers would suggest that the Enterprise and the Klingon ship was firing at extreme range - ranges where a hit isn't guaranteed - indicating that the Klingon ship didn't want to close with the Enterprise.
I also don't see that the Klingon "got a jump" on the Enterprise as the Enterprise detected the Klingon ship before it was in firing range. YMMV.

 

[Henoch]

We do know that a single Klingon Battlecruiser is no match for the Enterprise (see "Elaan of Troyius"). That would suggest that whatever was destroyed by the Enterprise was a battlecruiser or lower.
The use of the proximity phasers would suggest that the Enterprise and the Klingon ship was firing at extreme range - ranges where a hit isn't guaranteed - indicating that the Klingon ship didn't want to close with the Enterprise.
I also don't see that the Klingon "got a jump" on the Enterprise as the Enterprise detected the Klingon ship before it was in firing range. YMMV.

Granted, a Klingon battlecruiser is no match for the Enterprise, though the Klingon battlecruiser in EOT did survive a direct photon torpedo hit at minimum range (~30 km) while the Klingon ship in EOM was destroyed by a phaser blast in a dispersal pattern. To me, this suggests that the vessel in EOM was more fragile and less capable than the D-7 as seen in EOT.

<edit. correction, the minimum range is ~30,000 km. oops.>

 

[Dukhat]

Granted, a Klingon battlecruiser is no match for the Enterprise, though the Klingon battlecruiser in EOT did survive a direct photon torpedo hit at minimum range (~30 km) while the Klingon ship in EOM was destroyed by a phaser blast in a dispersal pattern. To me, this suggests that the vessel in EOM was more fragile and less capable than the D-7 as seen in EOT.

Obviously a D-6 rather than a D-7.

 

[blssdwlf]

Granted, a Klingon battlecruiser is no match for the Enterprise, though the Klingon battlecruiser in EOT did survive a direct photon torpedo hit at minimum range (~30 km) while the Klingon ship in EOM was destroyed by a phaser blast in a dispersal pattern. To me, this suggests that the vessel in EOM was more fragile and less capable than the D-7 as seen in EOT.

That seems pretty reasonable that the EOM Klingon ship had less defensive capability than the EOT Klingon ship although we wouldn't know if that is due to them having a more primitive shielding system or if it is just a different ship type. We can guess that the Enterprise's shields were upgraded between "Balance of Terror" and "The Deadly Years" to better ward off Romulan plasma weapons so I would think that the Klingons have been upgrading their ships as well between EOM and EOT.

I wonder if the Enterprise fired at minimum torpedo range in EOT though. We know that Sulu is calling out range in the thousands of kilometers and the last we heard is "thirty" thousand kilometers. Earlier, Kirk orders "Fire at minimum range" but then later after going to warp and giving a course heading the Klingon has already come around and fired again and then Kirk gives the specific order to fire to Chekov. If they had achieved a minimum range firing solution I would've expected Chekov to already have fired but since Kirk had to make a second fire command I think they fired a lot further away. For comparison, when the Enterprise fires presumably at point-blank with torpedoes in "Obsession" the whole ship rocks from the explosion. There is no such effect on the Enterprise in EOT.

 

[Henoch]

For comparison, when the Enterprise fires presumably at point-blank with torpedoes in "Obsession" the whole ship rocks from the explosion. There is no such effect on the Enterprise in EOT.

I agree that the range for EOT is much less than 30,000 km. Kirk's instructions are, "Fire at minimum range", which I assume to be minimum safe range, hence, no ship rocking.

From Obsession:

KIRK: Move in closely, Mister Chekov. Sublight one quarter speed.
GARROVICK: Captain, request permission to return to my post.
(He is totally ignored.)
CHEKOV: Within phaser range, sir.
KIRK: Lock all phasers on target.
CHEKOV: Locked on target.
KIRK: Fire phasers, Mister Chekov.
(The beams of deadly light go straight through the cloud.)
CHEKOV: Phasers ineffectual, sir.
KIRK: Photon torpedoes. Minimum spread pattern.
CHEKOV: Minimum pattern ready, sir.
KIRK: Fire photon torpedoes.
(The ship is rocked by the blasts at such close quarters.)

Based on other episodes, phaser range is 100,000 km. I read "minimum spread pattern" as the torpedoes (two in this case) exploding on the same spot. Range is not given, but based on the ship rocking, it seems that they may be within minimum "safe" range for the combined power of two exploding photon torpedoes. If one quarter speed equals one quarter speed of light, then they will travel 100,000 km in 1.3 seconds, so based on the length of the dialog, they could have stopped right on top of it.

Notes: One photon torpedo hit on Nomad at 90,000 km did not rock the ship, but maybe the shockwave was reduced since Nomad "absorbed" the blast.

 

[blssdwlf]

I agree that the range for EOT is much less than 30,000 km. Kirk's instructions are, "Fire at minimum range", which I assume to be minimum safe range, hence, no ship rocking.

Since Kirk gave two separate orders to fire with one conditional on range and the other being an immediate order we can only take it that the Klingon battlecruiser never made it to "minimum range".

SULU: Seventy five. Seventy. Sixty. Fifty.
KIRK: Fire at minimum range.
SULU: Forty.
SCOTT: She won't steady down.
SULU: Thirty.
KIRK: Warp in. Scotty, full power to shields.
Klingons hit Enterprise with disruptors.
KIRK: Warp factor two. Bring us to course one four eight mark three.
Klingons hit Enterprise again with disruptors.
KIRK: Chekov, photon torpedoes. Fire!
CHEKOV: Aye, sir.
Enterprise fires 6 torpedoes while traveling forward.​

From Obsession:

Based on other episodes, phaser range is 100,000 km. I read "minimum spread pattern" as the torpedoes (two in this case) exploding on the same spot. Range is not given, but based on the ship rocking, it seems that they may be within minimum "safe" range for the combined power of two exploding photon torpedoes. If one quarter speed equals one quarter speed of light, then they will travel 100,000 km in 1.3 seconds, so based on the length of the dialog, they could have stopped right on top of it.

Notes: One photon torpedo hit on Nomad at 90,000 km did not rock the ship, but maybe the shockwave was reduced since Nomad "absorbed" the blast.

In the same episode, "Obsession" we also hear:

KIRK: Range, Mister Chekov?
CHEKOV: Point zero four light years ahead. Our phasers won't reach it, sir.​

So phaser range is definitely less than 0.4 LY 0.04 LY but we don't know by how much. We do know that deflectors were raised only when the cloud started to approach the Enterprise so maybe the ship felt the torpedo explosions because the shields were not up?

EDIT: whoops on my part - corrected light year number from 0.4 to 0.04 LY

 

[BK613]

Alternatively, minimum range could simply mean fire at the Klingon when it reaches the closest point on it's attack run on the Enterprise. The whole thing sounds like Kirk originally was going to catch them on their flank as they passed but had to adapt a bit at the end because of the power fluctuations.

 

[Mytran]

In the same episode, "Obsession" we also hear:

KIRK: Range, Mister Chekov?
CHEKOV: Point zero four light years ahead. Our phasers won't reach it, sir.​

So phaser range is definitely less than 0.4 LY but we don't know by how much. We do know that deflectors were raised only when the cloud started to approach the Enterprise so maybe the ship felt the torpedo explosions because the shields were not up?

Definitely less than 0.4LY!
It was 0.04LY which is still a stupidly huge distance BTW

0.4LY = 3,784,286,407,680 kilometres
0.04 LY = 378,428,640,768 kilometres

 

[BK613]

Definitely less than 0.4LY!
It was 0.04LY which is still a stupidly huge distance BTW

0.4LY = 3,784,286,407,680 kilometres
0.04 LY = 378,428,640,768 kilometres

To add to this, that 0.04 ly is 2529.64 astronomical units, which is about where the inner limit of the Oort cloud starts as measured from the Sun.
Light from that distance takes about 14.6 days to travel from there to here.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

You're thinking of "Friday's Child".

I agree with @FormerLurker, the Klingon ship(s) in "Errand of Mercy" were probably more equivalent to a modern day amphibious assault ship. I sort of imagine they'd look like fat D7s. Trefayne said eight Klingon ships arrived in orbit. I think it was maybe six assault ships with a couple of regular D7s as escort.

So, something along the lines of a space-equivalent LHA, etc., mixed with the Klingon brutish aesthetic? THAT would be interesting, to say the least!

Although, didn’t FASA already do something like that? Something from them is tickling my cobwebs…

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[Warped9]

The D7 as depicted originally in TOS was not “brutish” in appearance. That came later in how the design was refinished in TMP and with later Klingon designs throughout the franchise. There is actually a wraith like elegance to the original D7’s appearance. TOS-R sought to eliminate that by making it dark gray.

 

[publiusr]

Exactly.

If I never saw Star Trek before and I saw a D-7 for the first time...I'd think it's crew were the Shadows aboard Babylon 5's Battlecrabs...not members of GWAR...

They stay on Orc ships of Battlefleet Gothic...fighting Ori cathedral ships

 

[FormerLurker]

Unless the D7 design is one they stole from the Hur'q. Or, conversely, a design that was meant to represent the change in their appearance (whenever and however that was supposed to happen).

 

[Warped9]

Fact is with this project I need only concern myself with how things were seen in 1965-69. The rest doesn’t exist yet. Indeed at this point I’m only concerned with how things were seen in 1966-67.

 

[FormerLurker]

With that being the case, the Klingons are not Biker-Vikings yet. They're rude, crude, they fart in airlocks(per David Gerrold), yet they still preen and strut. Their designs should reflect that.

 

[Warped9]

It’s hard to unsee the D7. So I’m thinking of something that Jefferies or Wah Chang could have played with that could have some familial feel to it (design wise) while not being a simple devolution of the D7.

I have something vaguely triangular in mind I’m turning around in my head. Mind you since this wouldn’t have seen much screen time (unless you consider repurposing it later, like in “Friday’s Child”) it can’t be too elaborate in terms of design and construction. At this point when the Klingons are first introduced in “Errand Of Mercy” there likely wasn’t much thought that they could be semi-recurring villains down the road.

Stay tuned…

 

[publiusr]

Aridas’ thought along the lines of the early Khans…nomadic…rather more like TNG era Nausicaans.

I could imagine a small outfit given only small ships early on—they would have to earn larger ones.

While there is some criticism of Trek in having crew members not move on to different assignments…I could see the same bands remaining on Klingon ships…that position would have to be earned as well.

Here, initiations of gangs start (and end) with beatings.