Unseen TOS....

[ashleytinger]

Preliminary look. Quite a bit more work to do.

On thing I really REALLY like about this design, it makes room for a physical post to support the model from the bottom if you were filming either ship miniature and with careful planning could have this dock suspended around the model while it's supported from below.

And you could even film it leaving the dock just by pulling the dock back away from the model.

 

[Warped9]

On thing I really REALLY like about this design, it makes room for a physical post to support the model from the bottom if you were filming either ship miniature and with careful planning could have this dock suspended around the model while it's supported from below.

And you could even film it leaving the dock just by pulling the dock back away from the model.

Cool! I Hadn’t actually thought it through, but you’re right. It could be done exactly that way. I put that break in the lower section just to avoid mimicking the upper section.

As I’m slowly filling in the details I’m using generalized ideas to guide my hand—I’m not fussing too much on exactly being too specific or how everything supposedly works. I might add things to suggest their function without actually spelling it out. In like mind Jefferies detailed the Enterprise in such a way that might suggest what individual things did, but he never actually dictated what each detail he added meant or what it did. Almost all of that came afterward, probably started with Franz Joseph’s blueprints.

 

[trynda1701]

Yeah, the reddish glow of the engines suggested power on the nacelles (were they even called that in TOS, I seem to remember "jettison the pods" from somewhere), but "space/energy matter acquisition sinks" or whatever Joseph labelled them then became the "bussard collectors" from about TNG onwards. Good design suggestion from Jeffries, the man was a genius.

 

[aridas sofia]

Just a thought, but did you ever consider that if you intend the ship to be worked on by people and the dock to not be an automated repair system, it would go against what Jefferies said about not exposing people to the hazards of space if your drydock is open to space all around? I think a Jefferies drydock might have instead been a cylinder with doors at each end, that could be made a shirtsleeve environment as needed. The doors might be hemispheric versions of the hangar doors. Essentially a hangar deck for starships.

Three of these connected in a spoke pattern to a K-7 central hub. This was what my original intention for a Starbase 11 orbital dockyard was going to be. I might still do it, though I also like the idea of an automated structure that circumvents the Jefferies strictures.

 

[drt]

I might add things to suggest their function without actually spelling it out. In like mind Jefferies detailed the Enterprise in such a way that might suggest what individual things did, but he never actually dictated what each detail he added meant or what it did.

What's always funny to me, one of the few things he did label was the dish as "main sensor", but every following production chose to ignore that in favor of the navigational deflector/make-some-shit-up emitter.

 

[Warped9]

Just a thought, but did you ever consider that if you intend the ship to be worked on by people and the dock to not be an automated repair system, it would go against what Jefferies said about not exposing people to the hazards of space if your drydock is open to space all around? I think a Jefferies drydock might have instead been a cylinder with doors at each end, that could be made a shirtsleeve environment as needed. The doors might be hemispheric versions of the hangar doors. Essentially a hangar deck for starships.

Three of these connected in a spoke pattern to a K-7 central hub. This was what my original intention for a Starbase 11 orbital dockyard was going to be. I might still do it, though I also like the idea of an automated structure that circumvents the Jefferies strictures.

Yes, I did think of this and addressed it upthread.

But to recap…

If you completely enclose the ship within a structure:
- For a “shirt sleeve” environment you have to pressurize a massive space when talking about housing a starship. That adds unnecessary complexity. And if you have to manipulate very large pieces of hull, components or equipment I would think having zero-g would be easier to do that.
- From a visual standpoint you’re limiting what kind of shots you can take. You have either one side of the dock miniature open to photograph the ship inside or you have an end of the miniature open to show the ship from a bow or stern angle, very much like how the shuttlecraft was filmed on the hangar flight deck miniature. You can do that if you want, but it’s not the only way.

If you have an open dock structure you can photograph it from multiple angles which gives you more creative freedom and more interesting views. It also maintains that connection to being in space and in orbit high above a planet. Of course, this is based on the coolness factor—it’s still supportable from a real world standpoint and can also look very cool and very sci-fi.

 

[Warped9]

Update.

I’m near finishing up the detailing on the dock proper—including hatches for workpods, cranes, spotlights, auxiliary craft hangar bays and hatches for hidden unspecified equipment and facilities.

Next will be the superstructure atop the upper surface of the dock.


Thinking a bit more in-universe. I imagine a major starbase could have perhaps several of these in orbit while a smaller base/outpost might have one or two.

 

[plynch]

Why do repairs to a starship need a structure around it at all?

 

[Tallguy]

Why do repairs to a starship need a structure around it at all?

Where else do you hang the 10 story high lights?

 

[ashleytinger]

Why do repairs to a starship need a structure around it at all?

I imagine with the ship powered down, you'd want something to protect it from debris and other hazards while you do repairs.

 

[Warped9]

Given a spacedock could have some sort of deflectors just like a starship.

 

[aridas sofia]

Like I wrote up above, Jefferies’ logic was twofold - people, not machines, would do the repairs, and space is dangerous to people. So per Jefferies’ logic, it seems the ship would be repaired by people in an environment isolated from space.

If you change the assumption that it is people who are doing the repair however, you can get to repairs exposed to space and still be faithful to people being kept safe. And yet…

Jefferies himself designed multiple manned dockyard craft that he foresaw being suspended on strings to be filmed maneuvering around the 11-foot model. There is no reason zero g could not be maintained in a sealed and pressurized starship hangar, so it’s still possible he would have had these dockyard craft flying in a pressurized drydock, but I kinda doubt it. I suspect he would have taken the easiest route and had little manned auxiliary craft work on a free floating starship.

Consequently, I think you can go any way you want and still be true to Jefferies’ thinking - floating free in space worked on by manned craft, docked in a cage that would do the work, possibly assisted by manned craft, or sealed in a hangar.

 

[Warped9]

…I think you can go any way you want and still be true to Jefferies’ thinking - floating free in space worked on by manned craft, docked in a cage that would do the work, possibly assisted by manned craft, or sealed in a hangar.

Jefferies had a logic to his designing the Enterprise, but there was also the consideration of creating something visually dynamic. It’s a great piece of design work that checks all the boxes.

In extent whatever you design for the show, as opposed to for reality, should follow Jefferies’ reasoning.

A fully enclosed system works if thats what you want, but it’s more challenging to film in an interesting way (from a 1960’s television production standpoint) and “real world” considerations mean it suggests more complexity to make it work.

A more open system is less complex and it allows for more creative freedom and ease to film. It’s also more visually interesting which is what you hope for in television science fiction.

And as I mentioned above the show depicted technological mastery of antigravity, tractor beams and deflector systems—largely magic to us, but commonplace hardware for them in-universe.

There is also no reason both open and closed structures could not co-exist dependent upon circumstance and application.

I also resist the idea of kit-bashing something like Station K-7. It’s lazy thinking when avoidable.

 

[ashleytinger]

I have to admit, seeing a whole section of dock float over to the side of the hull, seal off, and then a bunch of people in shirtsleeves run out to pull pieces off the hull to get to the insides would be neat to see, but as a one-off scene, unless you have action going on there, it's there to be there and not really driving the story. Although, as a sequence as part of a log entry it might work.

I like the big open dock more though. It fits my idea of dry-docking current ships.

 

[Warped9]

^^ You’ve touched on a valid point. With today’s resources showing personnel in shirt-sleeves working in a massive open area opening pieces of hull isn’t that hard. But with 1960’s television production limitations you’re talking about a massive time consuming and expensive exercise. Bob Justman would have had a brain aneurysm reading that proposal. You would have needed feature film resources and budget to pull something like that off.

And this is where TOS-R often flat-out blew it. They went where TOS could never have gone even if they had had a bit more time and money or even feature film resources and budget.

In the end TOS often resorted to suggesting things through dialog and letting the viewer’s imagination take over—it was simply far more cost effective.

But our conceit here is what if they’d had that bit more time and money?

 

[aridas sofia]

“A fully enclosed system works if thats what you want, but it’s more challenging to film in an interesting way (from a 1960’s television production standpoint) and “real world” considerations mean it suggests more complexity to make it work.”

I don’t really agree with this point. If Jefferies had designed a sealed starship hangar, I suspect he would have wanted it openable on the sides, front, and back - like he wanted the Enterprise’s hangar. That means he could have gotten three shots of the ship free and clear. The Probert-Minor “cage” arrangement is only unobscured front and back. The sides are by definition partly obscured. So you only get two views that way - unless you want an obscured view with a reveal, as they did in TMP. Or design a very thinly constructed drydock.

That’s why I think he would have shown the ship floating free of any obstacles with only dockyard craft fluttering around it. That would be the simplest way to make the point that the ship was being repaired.

But if he wanted to make the point it was really being repaired - or partly rebuilt - again, I can see using a structure of some kind, if only to emphasize that some serious stuff is going on.

It might be worthwhile to go back to what I suspect are the two earliest conceptualizations of this idea. Mike Minor’s work, iirc. This thing is barely there - a finely wrought bit of space filigree. These were done when Jefferies was still helping with the Phase II redesign, I’d suspect. It’s as if the ship is floating free- but with just the slightest hint something more is going on.
https://70sscifiart.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/tumblr_nlas0hno0h1sqf5tdo1_1280.jpg?w=768

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/5/5e/Earth_spacedock_(Mike_Minor_painting).jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120109165038&path-prefix=en

 

[Warped9]

^^ We will agree to disagree. The shuttlecraft shot was nice, but it was largely static. And they never did open the side of it. In real world terms I’m just not convinced of pressurizing and depressurizing such a massive enclosure just to work on a starship in shirt-sleeves. It’s unnecessary complexity.

 

[aridas sofia]

I think you misunderstand me. I agree with you. In fact, I believe he would not have used anything and merely added his little craft fluttering around to indicate repair was taking place. And if he wanted to show something more extensive like rebuilding, I think those Minor renderings had Jefferies’ input, because he was still involved. So, as is often the case with Jefferies, less is more.

FYI as far as I know, that hangar deck model was intended to open on the side, but it didn’t get built that way. It could only be filmed from the side we saw.

 

[Warped9]

FYI as far as I know, that hangar deck model was intended to open on the side, but it didn’t get built that way. It could only be filmed from the side we saw.

Apologies for misunderstanding.

As far as I know as well I believe Jefferies intended for the hangar to open on the side, but it simply wasn’t followed through on.

 

[trynda1701]

The thing about adding a K-7 style module to the drydock, as 'Court Martial' is a Season 1 episode, would they have used the NASA concept drawings for the inflatable station that eñded up as inspiration for K-7 in this earlier episode on a repair dock?

I COULD see some form of dome reminiscent of the Enterprise bridge dome? Maybe just a bit larger?

Which I always found odd in later years. Supposedly, when designing the Enterprise, Jeffries (at Roddenberrys' request of "make it look futuristic and powerful", or words to that effect, I can't remember) took drawings and pics of all the Buck Rodgers style rocket ships, and said "we aren't doing this". Then, didn't he get concept drawings for possible NASA future concepts and said " we aren't doing this either, it will date the Enterprise concept too quickly" or words to that effect? And yet K-7 ended up being based on a possible NASA concept!

Sorry for that quick tangent, just wanted to put that out there in relation to this drydock.