Tuvok's rank

[Timo]

But if that were the case, wouldn't a Vulcan recognize it as being illogical to join Starfleet in the first place?

How so? A Vulcan would not have an ego to bruise. The logic of compensating for natural superiority or inferiority might well appeal to those pondering whether to join the organization. If they want to be made instant Admiral as befits their abilities, they can always make the effort of going through all the motions (exams, extra training, hunting for commendations from exceptional performance) - but out of the half a dozen Vulcans we have followed in any sort of detail, none had ambitions of that sort, and even found the idea of high command positions somewhat repulsive.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

We have little idea about the crew size of the E-D. For all we know, it takes 150 people to operate a TNG starship, any starship, completely regardless of size: certain positions in a hierarchy need to be filled and backed up, but beyond that, the actual work is done by pushing buttons, and a ship two kilometers long is no different from a ship fifty meters long. Except that the 150 people bump elbows more often in the latter.

Timo Saloniemi

Somehow, I don't really believe that 5/6th of the Enterprise-D 's crew complement would consist of civilians that only live there and have nothing to do whatsoever with Starfleet. I'd like to think that there were a lot of extra officers aboard not directly connected with day-to-day ship's operations but still in Starfleet service -diplomatic officers, science officers that daily run the science labs, that kind.

But that's purely my personal interpretation. AFAIK, there's no evidence that points against 'only' 150 personnel so you could well be right.

But even if it were so, the vessel itself is way larger than Voyager, so I'd still think that being chief engineer (or chief of security) on the ent-D would still be a "heavier" job , calling for a higher ranked officer, than would being chief engineer or chief of security on Voyager.

I believe (but I'm no expert in this matter) that in current naval tradition it is customary too that the 'captain' of a huge vessel is of higher rank than the 'captain' of one of the smallest seagoing units, and I suppose the same holds for other high-ranking positions on such vessels. Obviously one of the reasons is that they have more personnel under their command.

I'm curious though what would be happening to that ranking system when higher and higher degrees of automation will require less and less of a crew complement?

 

[Guy Gardener]

"Seniority" measured in years, minutes and seconds, is a real thing in the real life armed forces to position pecking order for identically ranked officers, but in Starfleet according to the Episode Equinox, "fleet command" goes to the Captain with the most "tactically superior ship". Which is an end around to saying that if the admiralty wants you to be third class, you're dealt a tiny third class ship that will never get you a seat at the big boys table.

But if that were the case, wouldn't a Vulcan recognize it as being illogical to join Starfleet in the first place?

How so? A Vulcan would not have an ego to bruise. The logic of compensating for natural superiority or inferiority might well appeal to those pondering whether to join the organization. If they want to be made instant Admiral as befits their abilities, they can always make the effort of going through all the motions (exams, extra training, hunting for commendations from exceptional performance) - but out of the half a dozen Vulcans we have followed in any sort of detail, none had ambitions of that sort, and even found the idea of high command positions somewhat repulsive.

Timo Saloniemi

Isn't repulsion an emotion?

(Along with Gluttony, pride and other stuff that pushes humans a bridge too far.)

If Vulcans are purely logical, they know that every position in the mechanics of society has to be filled for the engine to work, and there is no shame in wasting one's potential... Isn't there? Well, there should be shame, but since they are incapable of registering, manifesting or issuing shame, then there isn't.

(Maybe it's like how Lactose intolerant people, have to spend all that time on the shitter whenever they think that they've finally figured out the dairy loophole?)

Vulcan needs ditch diggers too.

 

[TheSubCommander]

But if that were the case, wouldn't a Vulcan recognize it as being illogical to join Starfleet in the first place?

How so? A Vulcan would not have an ego to bruise. The logic of compensating for natural superiority or inferiority might well appeal to those pondering whether to join the organization. If they want to be made instant Admiral as befits their abilities, they can always make the effort of going through all the motions (exams, extra training, hunting for commendations from exceptional performance) - but out of the half a dozen Vulcans we have followed in any sort of detail, none had ambitions of that sort, and even found the idea of high command positions somewhat repulsive.

Timo Saloniemi

Nothing to do with an ego. What I am saying is if a Vulcan realized that he or she would not go very far in starfleet, and would only end up in a menial and stagnant station rather than realizing their full potential, it wouldn't make sense and would be illogical to do that, rather than the Vulcan Science Academy or other place where their talents are more properly utilized.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What makes you think that the Science Academy would be any different?

And furthermore what makes you think that everyone wants to go to the top?

There is no increase in quality of life by getting to the top, actually there's probably a massive decrease in life style.

Duty and service are their own rewards, and possibly almost the only rewards for duty and service.

 

[TheSubCommander]

What makes you think the Vulcan Science Academy wouldn't be different?

Not everyone wants to make it to the top, and I already acknowledged that, but at the same time, if a Vulcan with an IQ of 200 were assigned to scrub plasma conduits for 27 years, that is a waste of talent and illogical to do it in the first place.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If no one scrubs the conduits, the ship blows up and 900 people die.

Continuously saving 900 people is cool.

An Ensign is allowed to, and has been taught the skills to command the largest ship in Starfleet, but his rank can only order around Enlisted crew.

They can all do every the job, or staff any position with minimal additional training the moment they graduate the academy (in theory).

 

[hux]

It might be logical for Vulcans to disregard their superior abilities but is it logical for Starfleet to disregard them?

Unless, of course, Starfleet is simply an organisation dominated by humans with an inferiority complex.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'll consent that all of them are three times faster and stronger than humans, even though that is barely ever supported whenever we see them fight, and considering we saw that there was no effort for humans to resist Vulcan Gravity, their strength has nothing to do with Vulcan gravity, but then if it did, they should be short and squat.

Eugenics?