Tuvok's rank

[hux]

I think Maquis people got promotions but none of the Starfleet people did. Ayala was promoted from nothing to ensign then from ensign to lieutenant junior grade.

 

[Tim Thomason]

The Maquis were all given provisional ranks, of course, with their own neat little rank pins. That might mean nothing whatsoever to Starfleet and Janeway could promote them all the way to Captain if she so wanted.

Tom Paris was promoted back to Lieutenant junior grade in Unimatrix Zero (in full view of Harry, the sadists!), after his demotion in Thirty Days and pseudo-demotion after Cathexis. So, Tuvok wasn't the only onscreen promotion in the seven years.

And I'm firmly of the belief that Chakotay wasn't a full Commander during the show. His, never-corrected, provisional rank pin painted him as a Lieutenant Commander, and that rank would match Cavit's. Character's referring to him as "Commander" isn't really indicative of his rank, and the only real argument towards him being a full commander is the opening titles and non-canon sources.

 

[Lance]

Well wearing the wrong rank pips isn't unheard of how many episodes of TNG did O'Brien wear the rank pips of a Lt. ?

True, but O'Brien was a recurring character at that time and was referred to as ''Chief''. Tuvok was a main character and was credited in the opening titles as Lieutenant. It seems a bit too glaring a mistake to be unintentional. I wonder if it was originally intended for him to be Lt. Commander but later decided to make him lower ranked for some reason.

But O'Brien wasn't the only one. I forget the episode, it's in season five I think, but there's one occasion where Picard is mistakenly seen wearing only three pips. And if there's anyone on whom they should have gotten the costuming right, especially five years into TNG, it's Picard.

Basically: mistakes happen. Although, as you rightly pointed out, it shouldn't have taken them 10 whole episodes to correct Tuvok's rank.....but then again, Voyager's first season was a nightmare behind the scenes, mainly due to the necessity of remounting significant portions of the ''Caretaker'' pilot episode after the main series production schedule was already in full swing, so it's possible that the 'pip issue' was just a tiny little detail that got overlooked in the hustle-bustle. They had bigger problems to deal with at the time.

 

[TheSubCommander]

First off, the rank structure of Voyager era Starfleet officers are:
Chief petty officer
Ensign
LT junior Grade
LT
LT commander
Commander
Captain
Admiral
Also, it is noteworthy that Tuvok was promoted to LT commander in 274, according to the timeline on this page and also it confirms the insignia gaff.

The fact that Tuvok is a mere LT at the beginning of Voyager makes zero sense to begin with. He served in Starfleet from 2293 to 2298, then again from 2349 to at least 2371 (Caretaker), which is a total of 27 years. Now, I can understand if he had no desire to be captain, but given the fact he was a decorated starfleet officer, and spent 16 years as a starfleet instructor, he really should have been a LT Commander minimum, if not a commander.

 

[Timo]

Tom Paris was promoted back to Lieutenant junior grade in Unimatrix Zero (in full view of Harry, the sadists!), after his demotion in Thirty Days and pseudo-demotion after Cathexis. So, Tuvok wasn't the only onscreen promotion in the seven years.

The thing is, if we choose to think that Tuvok was demoted because of "Prime Factors" (albeit "gradually"), then Janeway is established as a skipper who only demotes and then relents...

And I'm firmly of the belief that Chakotay wasn't a full Commander during the show. His, never-corrected, provisional rank pin painted him as a Lieutenant Commander, and that rank would match Cavit's.

Makes good sense. Then again, most of the Maquis had rank pins that were inconsistent with their stated rank, due to being generic. Only Chakotay and Torres wore customized pins, the former being consistently Lieutenant Commander (one dark, two bright slashes), the latter being just plain weird (two slashes, of which none, one or even two were dark depending on the day).

the only real argument towards him being a full commander is the opening titles and non-canon sources.

Kira was also called Colonel when logically she should have been holding the exact rank of Lieutenant Colonel - again completely according to today's military practice. She even wore a Colonel rank pin different from that seen on another Colonel in "The Siege", heavily suggesting there are two ranks called Colonel in the Bajoran system. And her "Starfleet rank" while at Cardassia was that of Lieutenant Colonel, that is, Commander.

So, credits using the customary common form of address for two different ranks, upper and lower, need not be any indication that the character holds the upper rank. Our interpretation can go either way, and in both cases, there's plenty of support for the lower rank.

Now, I can understand if he had no desire to be captain, but given the fact he was a decorated starfleet officer, and spent 16 years as a starfleet instructor, he really should have been a LT Commander minimum, if not a commander.

Then again, he's a Vulcan. Why aren't all Vulcans vastly superior in rank to all humans? They live longer and thus probably would serve longer. They learn faster. They simply are better. Surely the largely human-run Starfleet would invent a way to compensate.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Terok Nor]

Well wearing the wrong rank pips isn't unheard of how many episodes of TNG did O'Brien wear the rank pips of a Lt. ?

True, but O'Brien was a recurring character at that time and was referred to as ''Chief''. Tuvok was a main character and was credited in the opening titles as Lieutenant. It seems a bit too glaring a mistake to be unintentional. I wonder if it was originally intended for him to be Lt. Commander but later decided to make him lower ranked for some reason.

But O'Brien wasn't the only one. I forget the episode, it's in season five I think, but there's one occasion where Picard is mistakenly seen wearing only three pips. And if there's anyone on whom they should have gotten the costuming right, especially five years into TNG, it's Picard.

Basically: mistakes happen. Although, as you rightly pointed out, it shouldn't have taken them 10 whole episodes to correct Tuvok's rank.....but then again, Voyager's first season was a nightmare behind the scenes, mainly due to the necessity of remounting significant portions of the ''Caretaker'' pilot episode after the main series production schedule was already in full swing, so it's possible that the 'pip issue' was just a tiny little detail that got overlooked in the hustle-bustle. They had bigger problems to deal with at the time.

Good point

 

[Lance]

EAS addresses a few of these issues here:

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/uniforms1.htm

And addresses the Tuvok problem thus:

Although it appears to be just retconning (bearing in mind that Tuvok was supposed to be lieutenant from the beginning, as in the episode credits), a demotion seems possible. Both were involved in the incident in VOY: "Prime Factors", making an illegal deal on Sikaris and putting the ship in danger. This seems like a sufficient reason to demote them. The demotion did not take effect immediately, but a couple of episodes later. Maybe Janeway was waiting for the result of an official investigation, before taking actions.

As far as unofficial fanon explanations go, that one is good enough for me. He's a Lt Cmdr for the first few episodes (despite what the credits tell us), but he gets busted down to Lt after his involvement in the ''Prime Factors'' incident. The site also points out that Tom Paris undergoes a pip change too at about the same time (from Lt to Lt Junior Grade), and further suggests that both 'demotions' may be linked to the same incident. Obviously Kathryn was very disappointed in Tuvok in ''Prime Factors'', but she does eventually promote him back to Lt Cmdr again.

I can buy that explanation.

BTW I looked up which episode Captain Picard mistakenly wears only three pips. It was one scene in ''Cost Of Living''.

 

[Timo]

Torres may also be demoted, as there's no telling what her exact rank is - Lt and Lt (j.g.) both look much the same on her collar. Torres participated in the "Prime Factors" incident big time. Tom Paris did not, but he is simply Tom Paris, and there'd be no shortage of excuses to demote him...

I just wonder whether Seska, another major participant, ought to be counted in, too. Her pips are the standard generic single-slash version, but the slash is black, which isn't a good match for her supposed Ensign. Perhaps the slash "really" was bright at first, and Janeway made her apply a felt pen in a humiliating ceremony at some point.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lance]

^ Ah very true Timo, there is more supporting evidence that the ''Prime Factors'' incident may in fact account for these changes.

Perhaps Tom was simply guilty by association?

 

[stardream]

EAS addresses a few of these issues here:

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/uniforms1.htm

And addresses the Tuvok problem thus:

Although it appears to be just retconning (bearing in mind that Tuvok was supposed to be lieutenant from the beginning, as in the episode credits), a demotion seems possible. Both were involved in the incident in VOY: "Prime Factors", making an illegal deal on Sikaris and putting the ship in danger. This seems like a sufficient reason to demote them. The demotion did not take effect immediately, but a couple of episodes later. Maybe Janeway was waiting for the result of an official investigation, before taking actions.

As far as unofficial fanon explanations go, that one is good enough for me. He's a Lt Cmdr for the first few episodes (despite what the credits tell us), but he gets busted down to Lt after his involvement in the ''Prime Factors'' incident. The site also points out that Tom Paris undergoes a pip change too at about the same time (from Lt to Lt Junior Grade), and further suggests that both 'demotions' may be linked to the same incident. Obviously Kathryn was very disappointed in Tuvok in ''Prime Factors'', but she does eventually promote him back to Lt Cmdr again.

I can buy that explanation.

BTW I looked up which episode Captain Picard mistakenly wears only three pips. It was one scene in ''Cost Of Living''.

Torres may also be demoted, as there's no telling what her exact rank is - Lt and Lt (j.g.) both look much the same on her collar. Torres participated in the "Prime Factors" incident big time. Tom Paris did not, but he is simply Tom Paris, and there'd be no shortage of excuses to demote him...

I just wonder whether Seska, another major participant, ought to be counted in, too. Her pips are the standard generic single-slash version, but the slash is black, which isn't a good match for her supposed Ensign. Perhaps the slash "really" was bright at first, and Janeway made her apply a felt pen in a humiliating ceremony at some point.

Timo Saloniemi

^ Ah very true Timo, there is more supporting evidence that the ''Prime Factors'' incident may in fact account for these changes.

Perhaps Tom was simply guilty by association?

Tom wasn't involved. Tom didn't care about getting home faster. He would probably have gotten thrown back into prison at that point in time. I would not have been surprised if Harry perhaps shared his ideas with him and he was guilty of keeping what he knew to himself.

I wish a bigger deal had been made out of the demotions. It wouldn't look like Janeway went so off the rails in Thirty Days.

There was a reviewer (I'm sorry I can't remember who this was and he or she might post here) who was really rankled by that and would sarcastically ask in other episodes when crew members disobeyed orders if they were going to get demoted and thrown in the brig. He even asked if Janeway was going to demote herself and throw herself in the brig at one point. He apparently held a grudge but it was still funny in a caustic kind of way.

 

[suarezguy]

Tuvok starting out as Lieutenant Commander and then after "Prime Factors" getting demoted to Lieutenant makes sense to me even if some of the early dialogue referred to him as Lieutenant.

It also makes sense to me that promotions and high ranks are rare in all Trek and in a small ship they might be especially rare.

If the ship was so small that the third man on board (Tuvok) was 'only' a regular Lt., should Janeway even have been a captain by rank? Why not make her a commander (that of course still is adressed as captain by function)?

Worf was chief of security as Lieutenant and La Forge started out as chief engineer as Lieutenant; maybe Picard was showing a little egotism to have both Data and La Forge and eventually Worf as Lieutenant Commanders on his staff when it's as or more common to only have one and for that one to act as third (fourth if the doctor is counted) in command.

 

[apollo1984]

I think is was just a mistake on behalf of the crew, should he have been a lt cmdr all along he would have been called commander tuvok or lieutenant commander Tuvok and not lieutenant Tuvok, as per military traditions and starfleet traditions it seems.

Retconning his demotion does not really make much sense either due to toms demotion at the same time (it was done so that Tuvok was clearly the 3 most senior member of the crew).
While not a major point Chakotay clearly held the rank of lt cmdr yet not once in the entire series did he use his full rank title the other star trek series seemed to use both depending on the situation so I think the whole series had inconsistencies on ranks.
Why it took so long to pick up the incorrect rank thats anybodys guess a lack of care and attention??

 

[Terok Nor]

I just wonder whether Seska, another major participant, ought to be counted in, too. Her pips are the standard generic single-slash version, but the slash is black, which isn't a good match for her supposed Ensign. Perhaps the slash "really" was bright at first, and Janeway made her apply a felt pen in a humiliating ceremony at some point.

Timo Saloniemi

I could so see that happening

This made Seska get in contact with the Kazon and betray Voyager

 

[at Quark's]

Worf was chief of security as Lieutenant and La Forge started out as chief engineer as Lieutenant; maybe Picard was showing a little egotism to have both Data and La Forge and eventually Worf as Lieutenant Commanders on his staff when it's as or more common to only have one and for that one to act as third (fourth if the doctor is counted) in command.

Perhaps; but the Enterprise is much larger than Voyager (I believe the tally would be approx 1050 to 150 crew (not sure if the first number would include the civilians too)). So 'chief engineer of the Enterprise-D' and 'chief engineer of Voyager' would be by no means equivalent functions. Same would hold for chief of security/2nd/3rd officer, etc. I suppose that could explain the grade difference.

 

[Timo]

(I believe the tally would be approx 1050 to 150 crew (not sure if the first number would include the civilians too))

It does - it's used as the total figure for people aboard a couple of times (say, "Remember Me").

We have little idea about the crew size of the E-D. For all we know, it takes 150 people to operate a TNG starship, any starship, completely regardless of size: certain positions in a hierarchy need to be filled and backed up, but beyond that, the actual work is done by pushing buttons, and a ship two kilometers long is no different from a ship fifty meters long. Except that the 150 people bump elbows more often in the latter.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Triskelion]

In Caretaker, Janeway refers to him as "Mister Tuvok". There is no further reference to his rank designation (in the script anyway). Suppose immediately after blending the two crews, Janeway took to calling him "Lieutenant" and Chakotay "Commander" simply as a matter of establishing a clear pecking order, as both Tuvok and Chakotay held the rank of Lt. Cmdr? This would also serve to validate the whole Maquis crew in one fell swoop. Make it clear to the ranks the Maquis were not subordinates but were expected to integrate and be integrated. Calling both men "Commander" would only invite conflicted interpretations. Logically, Tuvok would prioritize efficacy over trappings of office.

Then in Prime Factors, boom, off-screen demotion.

Interesting side note, in Prime Factors (The one with the Pleasure Planet Transporter black market swap, for people without eidetic memory), Tim Russ wanted Tuvok's betrayal to be more urgent, by heading off the threat of actual crew mutiny. The ethical dilemma reasoning seemed not compelling enough to the actor to justify a Vulcan betrayal; but many such story explorations were lost no doubt due to the frenzied shooting schedule.


Anyway, Janeway needed control, so one way to do that is by withholding promotions and keeping the command structure where it was: frozen in time. And you don't mess with time....

 

[Timo]

In Caretaker, Janeway refers to him as "Mister Tuvok". There is no further reference to his rank designation (in the script anyway). Suppose immediately after blending the two crews, Janeway took to calling him "Lieutenant" and Chakotay "Commander" simply as a matter of establishing a clear pecking order, as both Tuvok and Chakotay held the rank of Lt. Cmdr?

Now that's clever!

(It doesn't explain why Janeway didn't also give Chakotay the collar brass for full Commander for greater clarity. But perhaps she didn't want this all to get to his head too much?)

Anyway, Janeway needed control, so one way to do that is by withholding promotions and keeping the command structure where it was: frozen in time.

That would support "retaining" Chakotay's supposed pre-AWOL rank of Lieutenant Commander. Possibly she then got the appropriate ranks for Chakotay's crew from the internal hierarchy of the Maquis ship, even if this meant "promoting" Torres from Cadet to Lieutenant. Two completely opposite acts yet the same underlying rationale.

Accepting that the young failure Tom Paris was a full Lieutenant originally, and just got his rank restored as a reward for betraying his comrades, is a bit difficult. Perhaps his Admiral dad helped with the early promotions? Or perhaps the get-out-of-jail deal also included one step of promotion, and Janeway honored that?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[stardream]

restored as a reward for betraying his comrades,

I thought it was restored for his heroic actions on Ocampa. He didn't have to volunteer to go with the away team in the first place. He had the opportunity to beam back to the ship but instead went back to rescue Janeway, Tuvox and Chakotay...not to mention going the extra mile to rescue Chakotay.

 

[TheSubCommander]

Now, I can understand if he had no desire to be captain, but given the fact he was a decorated starfleet officer, and spent 16 years as a starfleet instructor, he really should have been a LT Commander minimum, if not a commander.
Then again, he's a Vulcan. Why aren't all Vulcans vastly superior in rank to all humans? They live longer and thus probably would serve longer. They learn faster. They simply are better. Surely the largely human-run Starfleet would invent a way to compensate.

So you are saying that there is a prejudice against non-human races? Maybe Starfleet IS a Homo Sapiens Only Club after all!

But if that were the case, wouldn't a Vulcan recognize it as being illogical to join Starfleet in the first place?

Nah, I will stick to my story and say that the writers dropped the ball when it comes to Tuvok, and he should have been a full commander at the start of Voyager. Tuvok wasn't formally part of the Voyager crew when he was infiltrating the Maquis, and Janeway's first officer was killed ten minutes into the pilot episode. But even Tuvok was part of the Voyager crew while undercover, there is precedent to have more than one full commander on the same ship, and Tuvok could have been second officer AND a full commander.

They even touched on the fact that Tuvok was the most senior Starfleet officer after Janeway, and should have been first officer, but in the interest of combining Starfleet and Maquis crews, and since Chakotay was a captain of his ship, it made sense to make Chakotay first officer, and Tuvok second officer.

So, there is no reason for Tuvok to NOT have been a full commander from the beginning of the show.

 

[hux]

He served under captain Sulu, taught at the academy and has what... 90 years life experience?

He's clearly more experienced that's Janeway (this being her first command).

Yeah, I think Vulcans definitely are discriminated against in the Federation and Starfleet. They treated us like halfwit puppies when we first met. Fast forward 100 years and we're getting our revenge by making physically and intellectually superior beings press buttons that say "fire."