TUC: Overrated?

[Smellmet]

Spock's forced mind meld with Valeris, I thought, was a way for him to make up for his own perceived naivety.

Spocks mind meld never bothered me either. Valeris was a traitor and therefore an d enemy of the Federation. Spock was simply doing what needed to be done - it was logical. it was either that or Kirk would have to slap her about a bit. it's not like there wasn't a lot at stake.

 

[Captrek]

Mr. Chekov, one time cheif of Security, not knowing that an alarm would sound when a weapon was discharged onboard?

That one is annoying because it's such an easy and obvious fix. Just swap the roles of Chekov and Valeris.

SPOCK: Any progress?
VALERIS: None. We have got a crew of three hundred turning their own quarters inside out, but the killers may still be among them. Surely they have disposed of these boots by now.
CHEKOV: Vy not leave them on Gorkon's ship?
SPOCK: Gravity had not been restored by the time they escaped. Without the boots they would have floated off the Klingon transporter pads.
VALERIS: Why not vaporise them with a phaser?
CHEKOV: Like this?
(Klaxon wails)
CHEKOV: At ease. No one can fire an unauthorised phaser aboard this starship.​

 

[Cyke101]

I don't find any more distracting that VOY's Sickbay being used in "First Contact."

They're all Starfleet ships. They're bound to have similar designs elements.

Well, Voy and FC are in the same design period, so that's to be expected. But a 24th century engine room in a 23rd century design is altogether different. It'd be like seeing an Apple store as a telegraph or the post office in a 1930s Frank Capra movie. They're both ways to communicate long distance yes, but using technologies of vastly different eras.

I don't really think you can make that argument here. I mean, the warp core we see in the TOS movies is basically the same style of warp core we see on Voyager. The technology really doesn't seem to have changed much in 80+ years.

And in TUC vs. TNG, we're not even talking about technology. We're just talking about a room. Somehow I doubt that walls and windows are going to evolve that much.

Technological changes bring aesthetic changes, however. In my earlier example, seeing 2014 Apple's pure white, smooth, simplistic aesthetic in a 1930s small town post office would be out of place in a wooden facility with the appropriate accouterments. You'd never see a purely transparent automatic glass door in It's A Wonderful Life, for example, even though the door serves the same technological function in the end. They certainly wouldn't have Apple style keyboards, even though they do the same thing as telegraph and snail mail, which is to send messages.

As for walls and windows, there are entire architecture clubs and societies that study and keep track of those changes through the years, particularly in big cities and small towns where both have tons of history, ie art deco from the 20s compared to brutalism in the 70s. Design styles change, and the more decades you add, the more of a shift there'll be, no matter the basic purpose, and Trek is full of these examples in their ship design, like TMP's push-buttons, levers, and knobs vs. V and VI's flat touch screen interface. Voyager's engine room is definitely different than TMP's engine room, the only real similarities being the multi-level room and the glass tube of the warp core. But even the brackets that hold the core in place are significantly different.

They could have kept the warp core, which is indeed an expensive set piece, but a bit more dressing up would have helped, especially since the producers were trying to tap into the one unified Trek fandom as their audience. Indeed, even the movie bridges differ aesthetically depending on era, even though the bridge placements are often the same. TNG was no stranger in redressing movie bridges to act as a bridge from a different design era -- if a TV show could do that for a bridge, a movie could do that for the engine room.

Exactly. These things are a million miles away from deal breakers for me. The things that really matter - they got pretty much spot on. Ive barely noticed the dressed up TNG sets down the years of watching it.

I never said it was a deal breaker -- for one thing, in an earlier post, I said TUC was the only Trek movie that I'd actually sit down and watch while channel surfing.

 

[Franklin]

Spock's forced mind meld with Valeris, I thought, was a way for him to make up for his own perceived naivety.

Spocks mind meld never bothered me either. Valeris was a traitor and therefore an d enemy of the Federation. Spock was simply doing what needed to be done - it was logical. it was either that or Kirk would have to slap her about a bit. it's not like there wasn't a lot at stake.

To me, it was odd to see Spock so pissed that he's terrifying someone. Nimoy was so incredibly intense. Maybe too intense. No matter what the justification for it was, it wasn't Spock's finest moment.

However, it was not as bad as Uhura not being able to speak Klingon. That can't be smoothed over with any explanation or rationalization. It's the only real WTF moment in the movie for me. The hard-cover Klingon dictionaries were too much too. Antiques, maybe? Antique Klingon-English dictionaries? Maybe bought at the last Barnes and Noble box store still open on Rigel 7?

 

[Captrek]

However, it was not as bad as Uhura not being able to speak Klingon. That can't be smoothed over with any explanation or rationalization.

I blame NOMAD.

 

[EnriqueH]

Overrated.

I just saw it again recently, and there are definitely pros and cons.

However, I tend to rate it on the lower side these days.

First of all, there's a sappy air to the proceedings. It's certainly appropriate in certain parts of the film, but I feel like it permeates the whole thing.

Second, I disliked the music. This being the last one, it demanded Goldsmith or Horner. The music gives the movie a "hangover" type feel, sapping the energy of the film. There are a couple of good themes, but overall? I disliked the music.

Third, I abhor the submarine feel of the Enterprise. I always felt the Enterprise should be open and airy like in TMP. In TWOK, the Enterprise feels more militaristic, but it still feels like the Enterprise of TMP. In VI, it just feels claustrophobic. Not a fan.

Fourth, the movie has a made-for-TV feel.

I did love Chang as the villain, second best villain of the franchise IMO. It was cool to FINALLY see an Enterprise crew member captain his own ship. Long overdue.

I'm glad we got to see more Kirk-McCoy scenes, but I didn't feel there was much of the trio together in this one.

 

[Captrek]

It was cool to FINALLY see an Enterprise crew member captain his own ship. Long overdue.

It would have been a lot cooler if they hadn't written Sulu as an arrogant jerk who treats his crew with contempt. People talk about character assassination in this film; I think Sulu gets the worst of it.

 

[RoJoHen]

People talk about character assassination in this film; I think Sulu gets the worst of it.

How so? I don't get that vibe from Sulu at all.

 

[IndyTechTrekkie]

The main criticism I keep hearing and reading about Star VI was that the Cold War analogy was too obvious. I've never really understood why that is an issue.
The end of the Cold War was obviously a massive event at the time and it is not surprising that films ended up using the theme and trying to send a message.

Why is it such a problem that it was rather obvious? I think it would've been a problem if they had just taken a random theme and forced it into a Trek movie but that's not what happened. I thought the whole movie actually worked quite well. The old heroes who had been fighting Klingons on and off all their lives, there was indeed a Cold War, the end of a generation (the crew retiring, but also Galactic politics changing big time). I thought it all fit the narrative really well. I think it served both as a wonderful send-off for the old crew and also as a turning point that worked to foreshadow the events in TNG (which obviously was already running at the time). That whole "getting old" theme had already started in TWOK and came to a conclusion here. Our heroes weren't just getting old, it was also the world that changed around them big time. In the end they manage to adapt and hand over the torch.

TUC is probably my favourite Star Trek movie. I like the mood, the dinner aboard the Enterprise, the political aspects, the adventure.

I thought the Cold War analogy was no more obvious than all the Moby Dick references in TWOK, frankly. The analogy wasn't enough to take me out of the movie, so to me it felt better integrated in that sense -- I only think about the analogy after a viewing, once I've had time to analyze it myself.

With that said, TUC is pretty much the only movie that I'll definitely stop and watch if I'm channel surfing. Maybe FC or '09 once in a while, but TUC is definite.

On a side note, while channel surfing this weekend, I discovered VH1 playing TSFS. I'm all for more Trek movies on TV, but... that movie has nothing to do with pop and adult contemporary music, right? Unless the Mos Eisley Cantina scene was a bigger hit than I realized...

See, this was the brilliance of TUC. Roddenberry had similar themes in TOS like "A Private Little War", "Errand of Mercy", etc. A lot of those episodes had Cold War references in them.
So, allegory has always been in Star Trek since the beginning and I think TUC was a tribute to that.

To me this movie was meant to be "The end of an era" movie. It clearly says "Ok, no more cold war". Kirk even says:

KIRK: Bones, are you afraid of the future?
McCOY: I believe that was the general idea that I was trying to convey.
KIRK: I don't mean this future.
McCOY: What is this? Multiple choice?
KIRK: Some people are afraid ...of what might happen. I was terrified.
McCOY: What terrified you, specifically?
KIRK: No more Neutral Zone. I was used to hating Klingons. ...It never even occurred to me to take Gorkon at his word. ...Spock was right.
McCOY: Try not to be too hard on yourself. We all felt exactly the same.
KIRK: No! Somebody felt a lot worse. ...I'm beginning to understand why.

Anyway, to me the TUC is a cornerstone of Trek

Plus who can't just love this scene?

http://youtu.be/XSqCJ-UGYns

 

[A beaker full of death]

Spock's forced mind meld with Valeris, I thought, was a way for him to make up for his own perceived naivety.

Spocks mind meld never bothered me either. Valeris was a traitor and therefore an d enemy of the Federation. Spock was simply doing what needed to be done - it was logical. it was either that or Kirk would have to slap her about a bit. it's not like there wasn't a lot at stake.

To me, this was the worst sin of the movie. As a telepath, Spock has always been especially mindful of respecting boundaries (I'm sure someone will come up with some contraexample from TOS). To see him forcibly penetrate her mind was completely out of character.

The Trek characters always stuck to their principles (as best they could in any given circumstance), even if they had to go the long way around the barn to do it. As Kirk told Tharn in Mirror Mirror, he could use force... but he (and the Federation) wouldn't.

As I've been saying since 9/11/2001, principles only matter when they're tested.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

People talk about character assassination in this film; I think Sulu gets the worst of it.

How so? I don't get that vibe from Sulu at all.

I'm inclined to agree with Trek or Treat on this one. Sulu's "Do you have a hearing problem, Mister?" is my take-away of his command style: not very inspiring, in my opinion. Reminded me too much of a jerk boss, of which we've all no doubt had one or two.

 

[Smellmet]

To me, this was the worst sin of the movie. As a telepath, Spock has always been especially mindful of respecting boundaries (I'm sure someone will come up with some contraexample from TOS). To see him forcibly penetrate her mind was completely out of character.

The Trek characters always stuck to their principles (as best they could in any given circumstance), even if they had to go the long way around the barn to do it. As Kirk told Tharn in Mirror Mirror, he could use force... but he (and the Federation) wouldn't.

As I've been saying since 9/11/2001, principles only matter when they're tested.

I can totally see yours and a lot of other people's point of of view on this scene, I really can, but time was against them and she had the information they all needed, what was the alternative? Not to split hairs but she only tried stepping back a bit, it's not like Spock pinned her to the floor or anything.

 

[Captrek]

Not to split hairs but she only tried stepping back a bit, it's not like Spock pinned her to the floor or anything.

She instinctively stepped back because she was terrified. She was logical enough to make no serious attempt to escape or fight because it obviously would have been futile.

A forced mind meld is at least as severe a violation as rape. An argument can be made that if a single act of rape will prevent an interstellar war, it's worth it. Even if justifiable, however, it's horrific.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Although I don't hate it, I think TUC is overrated, and treats the characters incredibly poorly (Kirk's a racist, Spock's a mind rapist while everyone just sits and watches, McCoy's doesn't know anything about Klingon anatomy, Uhura doesn't know Klingon language etc.) I prefer TFF.

 

[SPCTRE]

Although I don't hate it, I think TUC is overrated

By whom, though?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Them over there. *gestures vaguely*

 

[SPCTRE]

 

[Smellmet]

Not to split hairs but she only tried stepping back a bit, it's not like Spock pinned her to the floor or anything.

She instinctively stepped back because she was terrified. She was logical enough to make no serious attempt to escape or fight because it obviously would have been futile.

A forced mind meld is at least as severe a violation as rape. An argument can be made that if a single act of rape will prevent an interstellar war, it's worth it. Even if justifiable, however, it's horrific.

Disagree. I'm sure a healthy youngish woman could fight off an old age pensioner. I just don't think there was a great deal of force. If it's that bad she should have fought for her life.

 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

I like this Movie. It's one of my favourites.

 

[bbailey861]

Them over there. *gestures vaguely*

I'll add to that.