Troi in a miniskirt in the first season

[MikeH92467]

^ As I said, there's more than one kind of statement and more than one kind of power. I am sure your experience isn't unique, T'Girl - but I can assure you that mine isn't unique, either. Besides, maybe it wasn't as windy where you grew up?

Also, I think it's significant that you were in your 20s. What's empowering when you're a woman isn't necessarily the same thing as what's empowering when you're 12, 13, 14 years old. When I was a teenager, miniskirts were de rigueure - everybody but the Mormon girls wore them, and some of them did, too, when their moms weren't around. There's nothing personally empowering about following fashion.

But I do think it casts the charge of "sexism" against GR in a different light. Whatever his character issues and his caddish behavior, there was more at work in the decision to put the female stars in minis than simple horndogism.

However, as I mentioned before no matter what the circumstances were that might have made the TOS minis an understandable choice, to me there's really no way to justify the cheerleader look for Troi. If they had simply put her in the regulation uniform to begin with it would have nipped a lot of problems with her character in the bud. She still would have been beautiful and sexy, but that could have been secondary to the fact that she was also a highly trained officer and mental health professional.

 

[JustKate]

^ As for your first point, Mike, it could be, and to me it doesn't really matter who made the decision. Nothing rare, or even particularly terrible, about wanting your female stars (and male stars for that matter) looking sexy. What I mostly object to is the idea (which some of the really vocal defenders of the miniskirt uniforms truly seem to believe, or at least want to believe) that those miniskirts were there only because of these pure ideals of female empowerment. That's just silly.

But as for Troi in episode 1, there we are as one.

 

[Gotham Central]

BTW, I don't really believe miniskirts were a feminist statement in the 1960s. I've been told they were, but I was alive back then and that's never how they seemed to me. (T'Bonz and I have had this very same conversation.) But I was a kid, and perhaps older women had different experiences.

I've heard it from the lips of Grace Lee Whitney herself, who claims to have worked with Theiss on the TOS mini look, after being annoyed about having to pose for her first TOS publicity pics in a pair on trousers originally made for Sally Kellerman in the second pilot.

I'm sure Mary Quant and Jean Shrimpton would say the same: the mini was all about woman reclaiming their femininity. At the same time as baring their legs, this daring escape from conservatism included dispensing with the traditional/compulsory matching hat and gloves, which society had made them wear.

And it began in the late 50s, not the 60s. Check out "Forbidden Planet!"

I've had the same conversation with Grace Lee Whitney. She was very proud of her legs and the opportunity to show them off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Look, guys, here's the deal: "Reclaiming your femininty" and "showing off your legs" are not the same thing as "empowering." Do you see what I mean?

You hear this all the time - that miniskirts were this major feminist statement - but the fact is (and this is experience talking here) that once the thrill of being able to show off your legs all time wore off, they simply weren't. How can any garment in which you can't bend down to pick up a pencil or take a walk in the breeze without showing your underwear be "empowering"?

Pants were much, much, much more empowering - again, this is experience talking since when I grew up girls weren't allowed to wear slacks to school. If you can imagine. Pants weren't necessarily sexy, but they were almost infinitely more empowering, and if Grace Lee Whitney had been a girl in the 1960s rather than a woman, she would have agreed.

Edit: For that matter, if she'd had a job in which showing your legs got in the way of doing that job properly - say, that of a working officer aboard a ship - she might have felt differently, too. All I'm asking is that the next time you hear that "miniskirts were a feminist statement" or "were empowering" stuff, take it with at least a teeny grain of salt. There's more than one kind of statement - and more than one kind of power, too. If Trek had been interested in showing women being equal to men, they would have put them in something practical, and trust me, whatever miniskirts are, "practical" ain't it. But they wanted the women to look sexyand the women wanted to look sexy, both of which are perfectly fine, I just wish they'd not try to camouflauge this perfectly natural desire with PC goofiness.

I'm not a woman or old enough for this to have ever been an issue, but I know that my mother echoed the same point that you made. She said that back then, in a work environment women HAD to wear a skirt. She remembers it being VERY empowering when it became acceptable for women to wear pants to work. People forget that pants on women was actually way more revolutionary than the miniskirt. Women were often forced to wear skirts and dresses for everything in everyday life. Female officers in the military wore skirts as part of their uniforms and even that AAGPBL players wore silly, absurdly short skirts out on the field.

 

[Trekker4747]

To be fair, the women in TOS didn't really wear skirts. They were more like skants given that the skirt didn't open up to their underwear it did have a "bottom" to it. And while having the women in pants certainly would have been better keeping with the idea women were equals you have to be honest and realize that TV is a visual medium and having the women in leg-revealing clothing is going to be a bit more appealing than having them in pants.

And while I'd agree that women wearing pants was more "freeing" or empowering you still had women out there who may have wanted to be more free to show off your body and such then being allowed to wear a bikini or a skirt in a world that considered you a tramp if you wore hemline above your ankle skirts had their place too in empowering women similar to how burqa is looked at today.

 

[BillJ]

Not to be crass, but this all but speaks for it's self.

Those should be stunning in HD!

 

[22 Stars]

Boobs!

 

[Dan Harkless]

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread -- I know that is generally frowned upon. However, I just thought this was a remarkably productive and civil forum discussion, especially for the topic, and it just echoed and responded to my thoughts too perfectly not to sign up and reply, even though I'm mostly going to just express my agreement with certain statements, rather than adding very much that's substantive.

She was so hot when she was younger. Amazing legs and tits.

Ordinarily I would find it impossible to disagree with such a sentiment, but I was just rewatching "All Good Things" and remarked upon how much I noticed her in her miniskirt uniform compared to Season 1, and how she was the only actor among the crew that had actually become more beautiful with age. Denise Crosby very clearly showed her years (possibly moreso due to having a less satisfying career than the others after leaving TNG, and thus spending more of the time wearing an unhappy face; wow, how did I never learn until now when double-checking my memory that she quit rather than being fired that she was Bing Crosby's granddaughter??), as much as I always found her to be the most attractive woman on the show while Yar still lived (I am attracted to dikey-looking chicks -- what can I say other than that I must be a lesbian in a heterosexual male's body). And other actors, like Patrick Stewart, looked no worse for wear, but Sirtis was definitely the only one who aged like a fine wine.

For example, Lursa and B'etor might have been considered attractive Klingons, but I thought they looked hideous. They had some nice cleavage, though.

Hmm, Lursa was certainly hideous, but IMHO B'Etor was extremely hot. Sure, some of that was down to how well she played sexual aggression, but she's much hotter to me in the Klingon makeup than out of it.

Well, not sure about Troi, but her mother does comment on Picard and Riker's legs (she called Picard's "handsome" and Riker's "nice, too"), so that's canon.

Oh geez, those early episodes with the occasional miniskirts on males -- such a wrongheaded attempt at sexual equality (though Barrett did a great job of being funny with those lines, as usual).

Honestly, I think the black contacts she wore made it difficult to read her eyes and I MUST SEE AN ACTOR'S EYES TO CONNECT WITH THE CHARACTER!!!!!!

Interesting -- I'd never considered that. Her contacts don't cover much more than her irises, and I don't think pupils express much emotion outside of extreme closeups, especially on TV originally shown in SD format, but it's feasible you're onto something. Certainly the contacts were an unnecessary little nod to trying to make her look alien. I thought her unplaceable accent did plenty to support that, even though it later became anomalous when no other Betazoids, including her mother, spoke with the accent, and she gradually adopted a more standard American accent over time (both as the character and the actress; I'll always remember her shocking sudden Cockney accent in the early TNG bloopers, "Sorrry, my con-tak lens is dropping ou-t!").

I actually think she looked way hotter in the final episode, because she got a much better fit, & wore it much better. Plus, her hair had been softened to look more flattering

Yes!! I think you're exactly right. They are both subtle changes, but the former is exactly what I intuitively thought when looking at her miniskirt-revealed thighs in "All Good Things".

That second uniform is so much better than the first one, Mojochi - the first one could have been sewn by me, and I'm a dreadful seamstress!

Thanks for that insight, Kate. It's not obvious to the untrained eye, but yes, comparing the two costumes, it's obvious the later one is better-tailored to her figure.

I think it probably had a lot to do with a rather impressive girdle, actually. They could sew it up a bit more form fitting, once they were able to shore up her form better than they had originally. The entire costume dept. got much wiser over the years

Crap, I don't want to believe that -- I'd like to think the improvement is all her, but you're probably right about that being an important factor. Spanx didn't come out until 2000, but Hollywood probably had access to similar body-shaping technology long before.

The frizzy hair she had in the pilot episode was her natural hair.

Yeah, that natural Sirtis Greek curliness definitely flatters her best, I feel.

Were her legs really that uniquely sexy???

Uniquely? Maybe not. But distintively? Yes. Leave it to thigh-fans like me and the OP to judge. I couldn't tear my eyes off her legs during her miniskirt scenes in "All Good Things".

I happen to like 80's hair.

Right on, bro.

She was definitely the Elaine Benes of star trek though. Gorgeous woman with really bad hairstyles early on

Heh heh, excellent metaphor.

If we're going into confessional here (ooer!), Marina's appearance in Generations was one of the first times I had... um, "stirrings". Some of that was probably my age at the time of the film's release, but even now I can distinctly remember talking with a friend at the time about how gorgeous I thought she looked, in that film in particular compared to her usual series appearances...

No, it wasn't just your age. I'm totally with you on that. Her drunk scene in "First Contact" was also very enticing. And it was actually through Sirtis' commentaries with the ever-hilarious Jonathan Frakes on the films that I came to appreciate Troi much more. Both actors seem like such awesome and fun-to-be-around people.

Not to be crass, but this all but speaks for it's self.

Well, to be crass, those tits don't do much for me -- too flat and hangy. I'm personally more of fan of smalluns like Crosby's.

I've heard it from the lips of Grace Lee Whitney herself, who claims to have worked with Theiss on the TOS mini look, after being annoyed about having to pose for her first TOS publicity pics in a pair on trousers originally made for Sally Kellerman in the second pilot.

I'm sure Mary Quant and Jean Shrimpton would say the same: the mini was all about woman reclaiming their femininity. At the same time as baring their legs, this daring escape from conservatism included dispensing with the traditional/compulsory matching hat and gloves, which society had made them wear.

And it began in the late 50s, not the 60s. Check out "Forbidden Planet!"

Interesting! All good points that I was unware of.

Also, JustKate and T'Girl, thanks for your differing perspectives on the empoweringness of the miniskirt depending on when you grew up -- also not something I was aware of.

To be fair, the women in TOS didn't really wear skirts. They were more like skants given that the skirt didn't open up to their underwear it did have a "bottom" to it.

Good point -- I'm surprised I never noticed that (if there were any quick "upskant" shots when female crewmembers fell over).

 

[Trekker4747]

...

I was being silly and "ironic" in my post. (The contacts/eyes thing.) I did it since the OP was stupid and devoid of content so I just picked something random about her character and ran with it while also making a play on a criticism Levar Burton often had about Geordi's character. (Not being able to see his eyes, making it harder to connect with him as a character or for him to be able to fully express himself.)

 

[Dan Harkless]

I see. Still possible you're onto something there, though, even if it was meant tongue-in-cheekly.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread -- I know that is generally frowned upon. However, I just thought this was a remarkably productive and civil forum discussion, especially for the topic, and it just echoed and responded to my thoughts too perfectly not to sign up and reply, even though I'm mostly going to just express my agreement with certain statements, rather than adding very much that's substantive.

Yeah, usually bad form to resurrect a necrotic (4 1/2 years) thread but the extensive use of multi-quote justifies it. Just don't make a habit of it, please.

 

[Dan Harkless]

I've always found that to be a senseless policy which impedes people in the future from being able to get the full benefit of discussions, and gives people pause when they have an answer to a long-unanswered question and want to share it. However, don't worry, it won't be a habit. This was an unusual circumstance where I wanted to discuss a very niche topic, and found a great thread about it. It wouldn't surprise me if I never post here again.

 

[tharpdevenport]

I like '80's hair, but not that 1980's hair, especially that one in the pilot -- that was terrible. That was like some bad 1980's cheap science fiction "drama" hair stylist work. There could have been worse though -- check out that thing on Geordi's head at 3:40 in:

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(also features more terrible Troi ideas)

 

[Dan Harkless]

Thanks, tharpdevenport, been awhile since I've seen that one. Along with Jheri Curl Geordi (which I sincerely hope was due to him concurrently acting in something else where he had to look like an early-'80s El DeBarge member), Pink Data and Blush-Cheeked Data are of course the real "WTF were they thinking?" moments in that. I actually like Troi's unused corn rows / upper-back poof / curly sideburns and bangs hairstyle (sorry for not knowing the correct women's hairstlyle terminology) -- it has a nice slightly alien feel to it yet is a lot prettier than most of the ways they did her hair. And Jonathan Frakes' goofing around is hilarious even with no sound -- it's a shame he mostly had to be a straight man on the show.

 

[Trekker4747]

I've always found that to be a senseless policy which impedes people in the future from being able to get the full benefit of discussions, and gives people pause when they have an answer to a long-unanswered question and want to share it. However, don't worry, it won't be a habit. This was an unusual circumstance where I wanted to discuss a very niche topic, and found a great thread about it. It wouldn't surprise me if I never post here again.

That makes sense but there's plenty of times when it just doesn't make sense to do so. I've seen resurrected threads where people have answered "unanswered questions" from years ago. I mean, what's the point in answering a question years after someone's made it? They've either gotten an answer or have long sense stopped caring.

This was, indeed, a "niche topic" but it was also kind of a joke of a thread considering the OP. Again, you provided a substantial answer so that's what makes it okay but there's plenty of times people will resurrect a thread with a simple "Yeah I agree" or something along those lines.

I do hope you continue posting here, however, it's a very fun community to be part of.

 

[Dan Harkless]

Thanks for the welcome, Trekker4747. Yes, I would certainly be irritated by someone resurrecting an old topic with just "I agree" or "This" or something, but I can't agree that anyone who hasn't gotten an answer to a question for years has automatically stopped caring. I've had plenty of questions that have gone unanswered for years, some of which I've been lucky enough to eventually get the answers to, and a few of which were due to people responding to old forum threads, comment section threads, etc., and I was extremely grateful when they did.

Not that I was really providing answers in this particular case -- I was just discussing and providing my thoughts, but I think for super-niche topics, especially, it makes much more sense for people to respond to old threads rather than starting a new thread and causing people to post responses that are redundant to the original thread. If people are really irritated by receiving email notifications of new posts to the thread, they can certainly unsubscribe. And this forum shows the thread start dates when browsing (I see multiple on the first page of TNG threads from 2009, a pinned one from 2005, etc.), so it's easy for people who hate old threads to avoid them.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Hmm, Lursa was certainly hideous, but IMHO B'Etor was extremely hot. Sure, some of that was down to how well she played sexual aggression, but she's much hotter to me in the Klingon makeup than out of it.

And that's kind of why I like K'ehleyr. She rocks, tough as nails too.

 

[Ithekro]

For all of this I have notices a lack of visual attention to Sirtis' legs. Most of the visuals are of the upper body. There is a lot of talk about them of course considering the topical nature of the miniskirt over the decades.

Today I don't see all that many women wearing skirts of any sort to work.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Good point -- I'm surprised I never noticed that (if there were any quick "upskant" shots when female crewmembers fell over).

To quote Grace Lee Whitney on the TOS mini: "One leg was wrapped..."

 

[Logopolis]

Ahhhh yes, snipe the OP all you want but it is clear you have missed the deeper allegorical symbolism of Season 1 Troi. Clearly, the fitted skirt uniform with the knee high boots which squeezed her legs was a political statement about how women were confined into the masculinist hegemony in the mid to late 1980s. Perhaps with the upcoming inauguration, the tits, booty and leg features of Troi's uniform in Season 1 is more relevant to popular culture than we give credit.

 

[Mott the barber]

I thought they really nailed her makeup in by the time early season 6 came around. I think she had more of a tan/bronzer as well. Compare that early S6 shot that's been posted above with something from S3 when she was white as a ghost.