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Trek 09 disapproval questioned.

Now I loved BermTrek as much as any other fan, how did he get away with creating new series, movies, theme park attractions, etc. without as much fan backlash (albiet minor) as JJ did?

I'm not sure of your argument here. Lots of people here hated Berman and Braga, and lots of people here hated JJ for his take on ST. The percentage of angry fans probably hasn't changed. Some are always angry. At everyone.

But, where DS9, VOY and ENT played to ever-dwindling members of the general public, JJ's movie brought back the general public.

The diehard ST fanbase isn't all that different in size since the days of TOS reruns (culminating in TMP), or the heyday of ST IV and TNG. The temporary swelling of the ranks is that of transient members of the general public becoming casual ST fans again.
 
Personally, I'm not a big fan of the new movie. In fact, I don't like the majority of it.

But I've learned to live with it by considering this movie like one of the novels. A story that is not canon.

My Star Trek includes TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise and the first 10 movies.

Norm
 
I think that the movie had it's good points and its bad points. Quinto was inspired casting and owned the role of Spock. Urban as McCoy was also incredible. Can't decide on Pine.

I took issue with how certain things were written. What really irks me is the Kobyashi Maru scene. If you're going to cheat, don't make it LOOK like you're cheating. The super-mega-ultra-ship-to-ship transporter was complete nonsense. No on-screen explanation of why Nero decided to twiddle his thumbs while waiting for Spock.

I've got high hopes for the next movie, though, now that all the exposition stuff is out of the way.
 
I think that the movie had it's good points and its bad points. Quinto was inspired casting and owned the role of Spock. Urban as McCoy was also incredible. Can't decide on Pine.

I took issue with how certain things were written. What really irks me is the Kobyashi Maru scene. If you're going to cheat, don't make it LOOK like you're cheating. The super-mega-ultra-ship-to-ship transporter was complete nonsense. No on-screen explanation of why Nero decided to twiddle his thumbs while waiting for Spock.

I've got high hopes for the next movie, though, now that all the exposition stuff is out of the way.
You didnt get the impression that Kirk wanted to get caught?

Nero is crazy and hates Spock. Reason enough?
 
I loved everything about NuTrek funny, story,casting was incredible,music, just everything now before you throw stones at me for loving this movie that is what my opinion is ok.
 
You didnt get the impression that Kirk wanted to get caught?

No. I saw nothing in the movie that would convince me that he was motivated to get caught.

Nero is crazy and hates Spock. Reason enough?

If we're talking about Nero going balls-to-the-wall after Spock right away, sure. 25 years of putzing around, though? No. Nowhere close to reason enough. Besides, one of the main issues with most Trek movies has always been two-dimensional antagonists and paper-thin motivations. The latest incarnation did nothing to improve upon that.
 
You didnt get the impression that Kirk wanted to get caught?

No. I saw nothing in the movie that would convince me that he was motivated to get caught.

Nero is crazy and hates Spock. Reason enough?

If we're talking about Nero going balls-to-the-wall after Spock right away, sure. 25 years of putzing around, though? No. Nowhere close to reason enough. Besides, one of the main issues with most Trek movies has always been two-dimensional antagonists and paper-thin motivations. The latest incarnation did nothing to improve upon that.

His whole attitide was "Hey look at me!!!!" I see that as him wanting to get caught so he could prove the test was stupid.

Some people hold grudges a long time. Genocide and loss of home and family tend to piss people off. Folks here on Earth have held grudges for Centuries in similar circumstances. And he was (in "theory") a prisoner of the Klingons of 25 years. More time to stew. He was a bit 2-D. Trek needs better villains.
 
His whole attitide was "Hey look at me!!!!" I see that as him wanting to get caught so he could prove the test was stupid.

I don't see it that way. Looks more like he was trying to prove how smart he was. As stupid as he may have thought the test was, he must have thought that a disciplinary hearing was much more stupid. Doesn't make any sense to me that he'd want to get caught.

Some people hold grudges a long time.

Of course he was holding a grudge. But, it makes no sense for him to hold a grudge in such a way that he just sits on his ass for 25 years waiting around for Spock to show up.
 
His whole attitide was "Hey look at me!!!!" I see that as him wanting to get caught so he could prove the test was stupid.

I don't see it that way. Looks more like he was trying to prove how smart he was. As stupid as he may have thought the test was, he must have thought that a disciplinary hearing was much more stupid. Doesn't make any sense to me that he'd want to get caught.

Some people hold grudges a long time.

Of course he was holding a grudge. But, it makes no sense for him to hold a grudge in such a way that he just sits on his ass for 25 years waiting around for Spock to show up.
I dont think he expected a hearing. More like a pat on the back
and a commendation for original thinking.

Like I said he was probably cooling his heels in Rura Pentha getting even more pissed at Spock.
 
Besides, one of the main issues with most Trek movies has always been two-dimensional antagonists and paper-thin motivations. The latest incarnation did nothing to improve upon that

I can't help but agree with you there. Nero wasn't any more of a villain to me than Shinzon, Ru'afo, or any of the other "Why are they doing this again?" villains from the STU. They've managed to do it half way decent, like with Kahn, a few times but their mistakes always boil down to that scene in James Bond where the villain explains their master plan rather than just eliminating James Bond. It's been in varying degrees but its a reasonable critique to make on the nature of all Star Trek movie villains.

Deep Space Nine had the best villains. They were intricately woven into the lives of the core cast and there was adequate reason for them to take the actions they did. They tried that with Spock in this film... but did it in a kind of hamfisted way. I'm really hopeful the next movie will give a villain we can sink our teeth into. That would propel it truly where no Trek has gone before.


-Withers-​
 
I dont think he expected a hearing. More like a pat on the back
and a commendation for original thinking.

No, the development of his character doesn't support this at all. Kirk would have expected to get punished, had he gotten caught. From what we were shown of his life, we've seen Kirk act out and get beaten down because of it. It's not until the very end of the movie does one of Kirk's rebellions finally pan out for him.

Like I said he was probably cooling his heels in Rura Pentha getting even more pissed at Spock.

Which is why removing that bit of information from the film weakened Nero as a villain. I'd have gladly traded the scene with Kirk running away from ice planet monsters for some more scenes shoring up Nero.
 
I dont think he expected a hearing. More like a pat on the back
and a commendation for original thinking.

No, the development of his character doesn't support this at all. Kirk would have expected to get punished, had he gotten caught. From what we were shown of his life, we've seen Kirk act out and get beaten down because of it. It's not until the very end of the movie does one of Kirk's rebellions finally pan out for him.

Like I said he was probably cooling his heels in Rura Pentha getting even more pissed at Spock.

Which is why removing that bit of information from the film weakened Nero as a villain. I'd have gladly traded the scene with Kirk running away from ice planet monsters for some more scenes shoring up Nero.
I dont know if Kirk expects to be beaten down. At least not on a conscious level.

There were hints. Nero attacking a prison world and destroying Klingon ships. Barring that maybe it took 25 years to get the ship up and running again. So he laid low.
 
For whatever reason, there are people who think that they and only they know what true Star Trek is and everyone else is completely wrong. Why? Because they're the "true fan!"
I couldn't agree more. I will never tell someone what they should like, or that they don't have a right to their opinion, but the overall tone of those who hate the new Trek is "if you like it, you're not a real fan of Star Trek' Look, I grew up in 70's as a fan of the Cincinnati Reds, winners of two World Series and four National League pennants. Flash forward to 1990. My Reds win the Series against Oakland, Did I not watch because Rose, Bench, Morgan, and Perez were not playing? Of course I watched, and enjoyed every minute. To me it's the same concept. Just because Shatner and Kelly and Doohan aren't there, doesn't mean it's not Star Trek. The players may change, but it's still my team.
 
I think the OP is fundamentally misconstruing (or even caricaturing) the nature of a lot of the criticism of ST09. That seems to have carried over into some of the discussion, too.

Here's the thing: even if one had no prior sentimental attachment to Star Trek, there are still plenty of reasons to dislike this film. It's a bad film. All on its own.

It's not completely without merit: it has some good performances (esp. Urban and Greenwood, IMHO), and the special effects were as impressive as one expects these days. But... the story quite simply insulted my intelligence. The internal plot logic, and even much of the character logic, is downright nonexistent.

Some people can turn of their brains for a while and enjoy this sort of thing. (Obviously Orci and Kurtzman's Transformers movies are evidence of that.) I can't. "Suspension of disbelief" means I'll allow a story to make up its own rules, as long as they're reasonably plausible and internally consistent... but not that I'll allow it to just make up any damn thing at all as it goes along, piling one absurd coincidence atop another.

And all of that's judging it on its own merits, without bringing any prior Trek into it all. Once you introduce that comparison, and view the film in the knowledge of how good Trek can be and has been in the past, this looks even worse. Saying "there's been bad Trek before too" is no excuse for this being bad. For most of its history, Trek had aesthetic and thematic standards it at least aspired to uphold, even if it didn't always meet them. This film didn't; it set the bar much lower.

(Analogy: ask yourself why so many fans of the recent BSG series, after following it for years, were so deeply disappointed by the second half of the final season, and especially by the finale.)

Fair enough?
 
I think that the movie had it's good points and its bad points. Quinto was inspired casting and owned the role of Spock. Urban as McCoy was also incredible. Can't decide on Pine.

I took issue with how certain things were written. What really irks me is the Kobyashi Maru scene. If you're going to cheat, don't make it LOOK like you're cheating. The super-mega-ultra-ship-to-ship transporter was complete nonsense. No on-screen explanation of why Nero decided to twiddle his thumbs while waiting for Spock.

I've got high hopes for the next movie, though, now that all the exposition stuff is out of the way.


It was his THIRD SHOT at the thing...

Of course he knew he was going to get caught.

He obviously didn't give a damn..., thus the apple (which I thought was a really great reference to STII:WOK)

He just wanted to beat it, no matter what it took...

That's why he was so nonchalant about it, he didn't appear to care about what the consequences were going to be at that moment...

He just wanted to prove the point that it was an unfair test in his typical over-the-top manner.

I wonder if he would have done anything different if he had known that a Vulcan had designed the test.
=============================================

As far as the OP goes...

I'm old-school Trek, but I enjoyed the movie for what it was.

Of course I would have preferred it to have a lot more consistency with what We thought We knew about Pre-TOS (without the Alternate Universe Stuff), but ces't la vie, in all my fifty-some-odd years, I've very rarely gotten exactly what I want.
 
Fair enough?

Obviously not.

In addition to spoiler code, this board should consider adding "Warning: opinion about to be stated as fact" code.
Obviously it was my opinion. This whole thread (indeed, most of what's on these boards) is about running our opinions up the flagpole.

Thing is, I'm not saying you have to agree with my opinion to be fair. I'm responding to the tone of the thread, which started with the OP claiming to have see "bitter hatred poured forth towards Trek 09" everywhere he looks.

I therefore pointed out the reasons my assessment of the film was not as visceral and irrational as the caricature he described... and ended by asking, rhetorically, if it was "fair enough" for me to hold that opinion for the reasons described, rather than for the straw-man ones that the OP attributed to the film's critics.

I hope you're not saying "obviously not" to that.
 
Fair enough?

Obviously not.

In addition to spoiler code, this board should consider adding "Warning: opinion about to be stated as fact" code.
Kind of a pissy response to lawman's very reasonable and reasoned post, don't you think?

Hey, I'll admit that Paramount got my money. They got it times for this film: once at the drive-in, once for the DVD (on sale) and once for the Blu-Ray (also on sale; I wanted to see if the best picture I could get would improve things). in much the same way that I tried to give ENT a fair shot by suffering through all of it, I've tried to give AbramsTrek a fair shot, as well. And after all that, I still find it to be a below-average film with what could have been great VFX, if they hadn't been spoiled by the cinematographic decisions of its hotshot director, who, quite frankly, managed to make the entire film look like Amateur Night.

I don't think Trek, as a franchise, has ever been perfect. But I do expect a significantly-higher level of professionalism at the budget accorded to this movie. And, after 4 years of double-speak from B&B about how ENT was supposed to be a "whole new vision, not your father's Star Trek" and getting little but backstory retellings of what they thought were the fans' favorite trivia - and getting it pretty much wrong every time - I was disappointed that the so-called "reboot" of the franchise was yet another shortcut through time in order to get away with changing everything while still having an excuse for it, while at the same time wasting my time with 'cute' in-jokes to show me 'just how much the writers are fans, too." On top of that, I just don't buy the whole "New fans don't know anything about the old show and wouldn't accept it" while redesigning the ship 'just enough' that it looks too different for many old fans to accept it and not different enough for the new fans to know or give a damn! To me, that's an incredible waste of time and effort for a lousy payoff in both directions.

You know what? I'm a fan of Trek and even I'm sick of fans' ideas of what makes a Trek story. Why? Because we rarely come up with anything new either - we mostly indulge in backstory trivia and beating every dead horse that beams in. And for me, that was a big part of AbramsTrek, too. I don't give a rat's ass about how all these characters came together - never have! Let's see what their next adventure is, not rehash their past. For a franchise supposedly intent on showing us the future, it sure has indulged in a lot of useless necrophilia and nostalgia in this past decade.

As for what Abrams did that was "original" - how original is adding lens flares to a film? How exciting is it to not be able to see what you've paid good money to see? Just shine a flashlight in your own eyes every 5 seconds for two hours and tell me you got your money's worth for the ride - it was annoying, and it had no purpose other than to act as a replacement for actual excitement. It was unprofessional, IMO - it was a cheap gimmick. As was the crap about 'trying to make it more realistic and accessible' - by using a brewery and a 1930's generating plant as plausible interiors for 23rd century starships. I'm frankly flabbergasted by the amount of spin that's used to try to sell that in the extras on the discs, esp. when they say that it would've been impossible to make something that 'believable' in CGI. If Ryan Church can imagine it in 2D, I don't for a second believe that it couldn't be made 'real' in 3D. Sorry, but those interiors scream "Roger Corman" to me, or worse, Space Mutiny - all those years ago, we laughed along with Mike and the 'bots as they pointed out the silliness of a warehouse being used as the bowels of the Battlestar Galactica; if only we'd known then ...

I felt cheated by AbramsTrek. They held out candy and then cheaped out on us. They promised us something new and then littered it with bad in-jokes that only pointed out how they were failing to serve even one master, let alone two. They took some decent progress that's been made in melding CGI and live-action seamlessly and realistically, like camera movement and focus-pulls, and beat us senseless with overcooked visuals and a director who thinks physically knocking the camera back and forth improves the storytelling. Trek needed a serious director, not a hotshot who thinks that everything should be "cool," and who can't seem to find a solid story with both hands and one of his many flashlights. It needed less fanboy silliness and more maturity - not that the story needed to be deadly serious or "good science fiction," but if it's not going to be good science fiction, it should, at the very least, be a good, sensible story. For me, it really wasn't.

And see - I managed all that without an ounce of hatred :). (oh, and I may be the only one here who thinks Urban's McCoy was the worst parody in the film - except maybe for Yelchin's Chekov. Man that was bad! Those both belonged in an SNL skit, not in this movie.)
 
While I'm not quite as critical as Ptrope is, I do agree with him on one point:

This film didn't seem to know what it wanted to be. One moment it seemed embarrassed to be Star Trek, then the next it was screaming "Look at me! I'm Star Trek!".
 
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