TOS most sexist episodes/moments

[Captrek]

Yep, you're right it has to be sexist. Couldn't be any other reason.

Yep, you’re right, I’m really going way out on a limb by assuming that when Pike says he agrees with her reason he’s referring to the reason she gave him.

The idea that she couldn't face rebuilding her life at that age in a completely new environment has to be sexist? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

It has nothing to do with her age! It’s all about her looks! I’m not speculating. The episode is very explicit about this. She can’t leave Talos because if she does she’ll be ugly.

If you want to excise that conversation from your copies of The Cage and The Menagerie and pretend it never happened, good for you. But this thread is about sexist moments in TOS, and that conversation is part of TOS, whether you like it or not.

 

[MikeH92467]

Yep, you’re right, I’m really going way out on a limb by assuming that when Pike says he agrees with her reason he’s referring to the reason she gave him.

The idea that she couldn't face rebuilding her life at that age in a completely new environment has to be sexist? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

It has nothing to do with her age! It’s all about her looks! I’m not speculating. The episode is very explicit about this. She can’t leave Talos because if she does she’ll be ugly.

If you want to excise that conversation from your copies of The Cage and The Menagerie and pretend it never happened, good for you. But this thread is about sexist moments in TOS, and that conversation is part of TOS, whether you like it or not.

Feminism started out as women being empowered to make their own life choices for their own reasons. You might not like her reasons or agree with them. But nobody coerced and nobody tried to persuade her to change to meet their own standards. You would impose your standards on her, which to me is the exact opposite of individual empowerment. She had her reasons, you don't like them and think she was wrong for having them and want her to follow your standards. The writers had her make a choice, one that you don't agree with, but it was still a choice. It was her decision, rationally arrived at. Pike doing anything other than agreeing to that decision would have been much more sexist.

 

[CaseNumber825]

Apart from the moments that other people have mention (the 'Women don't belong in your world of Starship captains', the frequent 'I'm scared' from various female characters.... Rand's character in general etc etc)
One bit that sticks out in my mind was in 'Shore Leave' when McCoy and Yeoman Barrows were wandering around and she's talking about wanting to be dressed in 'a flowing dress and a tall hat with a veil'
Then when she finds a dress and veil she goes 'Look at these outfits, a lady can be protected and fought for' and I'm sitting there going
'NO.... SHUT UP.... YOU'RE IN STARFLEET NOW ACT LIKE IT'

 

[Captrek]

The idea that she couldn't face rebuilding her life at that age in a completely new environment has to be sexist? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

It has nothing to do with her age! It’s all about her looks! I’m not speculating. The episode is very explicit about this. She can’t leave Talos because if she does she’ll be ugly.

If you want to excise that conversation from your copies of The Cage and The Menagerie and pretend it never happened, good for you. But this thread is about sexist moments in TOS, and that conversation is part of TOS, whether you like it or not.

Feminism started out as women being empowered to make their own life choices for their own reasons. You might not like her reasons or agree with them. But nobody coerced and nobody tried to persuade her to change to meet their own standards. You would impose your standards on her, which to me is the exact opposite of individual empowerment. She had her reasons, you don't like them and think she was wrong for having them and want her to follow your standards. The writers had her make a choice, one that you don't agree with, but it was still a choice. It was her decision, rationally arrived at. Pike doing anything other than agreeing to that decision would have been much more sexist.

It’s not empowering. She doesn’t say “I could rejoin human society and have a fulfilling life, but I’m going to stick around here because I like being kept in a cage and fed illusions.” She says she can’t go back — she uses the word can’t three times in this short conversation. Her choice of words indicates the exact opposite of empowerment.

As for Pike, he doesn’t say that he accepts her decision as the decision of an empowered woman entitled to make her own choices about her own life regardless of what he thinks. What he says is that he agrees with her stated reason that as an ugly woman she can not rejoin society.

You’re very determined to reject the stated reasons as if the conversation never happened and make up your own reasons having to do with her “very advanced” age (which is never stated in the episode and could be as young as 40). The intended meaning of the conversation is unambiguous, and if you refuse to accept it, I’m wasting my time with you.

 

[MikeH92467]

It has nothing to do with her age! It’s all about her looks! I’m not speculating. The episode is very explicit about this. She can’t leave Talos because if she does she’ll be ugly.

If you want to excise that conversation from your copies of The Cage and The Menagerie and pretend it never happened, good for you. But this thread is about sexist moments in TOS, and that conversation is part of TOS, whether you like it or not.

Feminism started out as women being empowered to make their own life choices for their own reasons. You might not like her reasons or agree with them. But nobody coerced and nobody tried to persuade her to change to meet their own standards. You would impose your standards on her, which to me is the exact opposite of individual empowerment. She had her reasons, you don't like them and think she was wrong for having them and want her to follow your standards. The writers had her make a choice, one that you don't agree with, but it was still a choice. It was her decision, rationally arrived at. Pike doing anything other than agreeing to that decision would have been much more sexist.

It’s not empowering. She doesn’t say “I could rejoin human society and have a fulfilling life, but I’m going to stick around here because I like being kept in a cage and fed illusions.” She says she can’t go back — she uses the word can’t three times in this short conversation. Her choice of words indicates the exact opposite of empowerment.

As for Pike, he doesn’t say that he accepts her decision as the decision of an empowered woman entitled to make her own choices about her own life regardless of what he thinks. What he says is that he agrees with her stated reason that as an ugly woman she can not rejoin society.

You’re very determined to reject the stated reasons as if the conversation never happened and make up your own reasons having to do with her “very advanced” age (which is never stated in the episode and could be as young as 40). The intended meaning of the conversation is unambiguous, and if you refuse to accept it, I’m wasting my time with you.

Actually, Number One starts to calculate Vina's age based on the crash date of the ship. The implication was very clear that the age would have been substantially higher than the other women.

I don't agree with your conclusions. I've stated why. To me the conversation is quite ambiguous and trying to convince me that you're interpretation is the only correct one is indeed a waste of time. Hopefully, between us we've stimulated some other lurkers. Good debate, no flaming, no personal attacks. I'm cool with all that, how about you?

 

[Captrek]

Actually, Number One starts to calculate Vina's age based on the crash date of the ship. The implication was very clear that the age would have been substantially higher than the other women.

Even at 40, she would be the oldest of the three women. (We don’t know Number One’s age, but Majel was 32 when it was filmed. Colt is obviously much younger.) Considering that the Talosians are depending on her to bear children, she can’t be a heck of a lot older than 40. Your suggestion that a woman of childbearing age can be too old to start over in an egalitarian society is, I think, a real stretch, and is certainly not the reason she gives Pike for staying.

I don't agree with your conclusions. I've stated why. To me the conversation is quite ambiguous and trying to convince me that you're interpretation is the only correct one is indeed a waste of time.

The only possible interpretation, no. The prima facie interpretation, yes.

Maybe she’s 60 when her ship crashes on Talos and 78 at the time of the events depicted in the episode, the Talosians have some technology to allow her to bear children at that age, her “very advanced age” is her actual reason for staying, she has some reason for responding to Pike’s suggestion of leaving by showing him her true appearance and stating that the problem is entirely cosmetic instead of stating her actual reason for staying, and Pike’s “I agreed with her reasons” comment refers to her unstated reasons and not to the reason given in the episode. I can’t disprove any of that, but Ockham’s razor would not be kind to it.

I take the conversation at face value. I can’t make you or anyone else do the same.

Hopefully, between us we've stimulated some other lurkers. Good debate, no flaming, no personal attacks. I'm cool with all that, how about you?

I think I’ve said everything I have to say on the topic, as have you, so unless somebody else is going to jump in and contribute something, this discussion would seem to be over. We’re cool.

 

[DevilEyes]

It’s not empowering. She doesn’t say “I could rejoin human society and have a fulfilling life, but I’m going to stick around here because I like being kept in a cage and fed illusions.” She says she can’t go back — she uses the word can’t three times in this short conversation. Her choice of words indicates the exact opposite of empowerment.

As for Pike, he doesn’t say that he accepts her decision as the decision of an empowered woman entitled to make her own choices about her own life regardless of what he thinks. What he says is that he agrees with her stated reason that as an ugly woman she can not rejoin society.

You’re very determined to reject the stated reasons as if the conversation never happened and make up your own reasons having to do with her “very advanced” age (which is never stated in the episode and could be as young as 40). The intended meaning of the conversation is unambiguous, and if you refuse to accept it, I’m wasting my time with you.

I've never understood it to mean that she literally couldn't go back to the human society. Of course she could. She just didn't want to live like that, couldn't imagine her life like that.

Is that sexist? Does it imply that an "ugly" woman can't be a part of society? Is Abre Los Ojos and its remake Vanilla Sky sexist and does it imply that there is no life for a an ugly male? No, it's just a story whose main character is a man for whom being handsome was a crucial part of his identity for so long, and used to have people react to him that way, and who can't deal with a life as a person with a disfigured face that people feel uncomfortable around - so he'd rather 'die' and live a life of illusion where he can be his old self and be happy again. Vina seems to be another person who would rather have an illusion of a life where she still has her health and beauty, rather than a real life in which she'd be stared at and pitied. (She isn't just what we mean by "ugly". We don't see much of it, but I thought it was implied by her line that the Talosians didn't know how to "put her back together" as they had never seen a human being before, that her body is disfigured.)

If Pike understood her reasons and thought they were good enough, maybe it was because he would make a similar decision for himself in similar circumstances... and he eventually did, after his own accident he (albeit with a help from Spock, who guessed what Pike wanted) chose to live a life of illusion where he was still a healthy, able-bodied, attractive man he used to be, rather than a disfigured, disabled burn victim in a wheelchair. Is that offensive to disabled people? Does it mean that there is no room in society for them? I don't think so. But I think that there are people who are used to being strong, healthy and attractive, and wouldn't be able to accept their new circumstances after it's all suddenly taken away from them, just like there are others who would be able to adjust and make the best out of their circumstances. We may try to be as PC as possible, but it would ring false if we tried to deny that former people do not exist. I believed that there are quite a few people who would make the same decision as Vina. Maybe if the show was made 20 years later on TNG, Pike would convince her that she should be back and that she can still be a valuable member of the society, we'd get a nice little PC speech from him, and a message that truth is always better than illusion etc. etc. But I think that the endings of "The Cage" (and "The Menagerie") made for a much better story as it is, with the topic of real life vs illusion and the idea that sometimes we may just have to accept that people have strong reasons (strong for them, anyway) to choose the latter over the former.

 

[skylark14]

The one that jolted me the most on first viewing as an adolescent was the scene in Bread and Circuses where Kirk apparently beds Drucilla, who he knows is a slave who has been "ordered to please" him. Then, smirking, he tells the others "they threw me a few curves." This just seemed so out of character for the man who always seemed compelled to free humans whenever he found them enslaved in other episodes.

 

[jtkirk]

Only females were Yeoman's. Since a Yeoman's duties are somewhat subservient (secretarial), the fact that it is exclusively a female job makes that sexist.

 

[MikeH92467]

Only females were Yeoman's. Since a Yeoman's duties are somewhat subservient (secretarial), the fact that it is exclusively a female job makes that sexist.

Early on, Kirk noted that he'd like to find out who assigned him a female yeoman after she made a point of fussing around him a bit too much. We only saw female yeoman, but it's pretty clear that it was a unisex job.

 

[Christopher]

Also, Pike's yeoman who was killed on Rigel VII was implicitly male, since Pike was uneasy with his new yeoman (Colt) being female.

 

[Kegg]

Also, Pike's yeoman who was killed on Rigel VII was implicitly male, since Pike was uneasy with his new yeoman (Colt) being female.

Which is incidental. The series aired the idea out there of being male yeomen (as such exist in the real world) but on the show treated them pretty much exclusively as secretaries. They hand in reports, serve coffee, are invariably buxom. A token nod to notional males from scenes which were deleted from "The Menagerie" and thus didn't make the original airing ain't a hell of a lot; that the show kept falling back on women for the role is self-explanatory.

 

[Christopher]

I'm not disputing that, merely being thorough in listing the facts. Not every statement of fact is meant to serve some argument or ideological agenda.

Of course, in the '60s, it was pretty much a given that secretarial roles in civilian life were filled by women -- and let's face it, things haven't changed that much today. But in the military at the time, yeomen were invariably men. So from a '60s perspective, it would've been seen as progressive to show the "secretaries" in a naval service being female. Just showing women in Starfleet at all was feminist by the standards of the day, even if they didn't question the social expectation that clerical and support roles would be a female domain.

 

[Warped9]

Sexism: Shatner lost his shirt in every other episode but none of the hot ladies ever did. No fair!

 

[Warped9]

The one that jolted me the most on first viewing as an adolescent was the scene in Bread and Circuses where Kirk apparently beds Drucilla, who he knows is a slave who has been "ordered to please" him. Then, smirking, he tells the others "they threw me a few curves." This just seemed so out of character for the man who always seemed compelled to free humans whenever he found them enslaved in other episodes.

Well, for all Kirk knew he had only a few more hours to live...so what the hell.

Here's an anlogy: you're on a strict diet and then you're sentenced to die. What would you like for a last meal? Hmm...pizza with all of my favourite toppings. Screw the diet.

 

[Hermiod]

Sexism: Shatner lost his shirt in every other episode but none of the hot ladies ever did. No fair!

Many a true word is spoken in jest.

 

[Pauln6]

Vina wasn't sexist - quite the opposite - she remains one of the most electrifying sci fi heroines even by today's standards. I also think that her decision to stay behind was motivated due to her age and mobility problems as much as her looks - the fantasy world was preferable to her to hobbling around in the grimy real world, particularly after spending so long in captivity - many long term prisoners struggle to cope in the real world upon release. Since Pike later makes the same choice for similar reasons later on, we can't really say that it was due to her sex.

The position of the yeomen was often a bit sexist, as was the patronising way the male officers sometimes referred to their female contemporaries. Since the yeoman role was designed for Rand, this explains why the position was filled by a succession of women in subsequent episodes, many of whom would have actually been Rand if she had stayed. In seasons two and three we don't see that many yeomen joining in with landing parties and I think the number of women featured on landing teams dropped as a result. So the issue wasn't really about yeomen but just generally featuring women. When a female officer (apart from Uhura) featured, it was often to be lusted after by a villain or because she was fancied by one of the crew. Her actual skills as an officer were often absent!

 

[Hermiod]

I think TNG, retroactively at least, undoes any implications of sexism when it comes to the Yeomen.

The society we see in TNG shows that people aren't embarrassed about their sexuality anymore. Riker, for instance, is often described as some sort of womaniser yet most of his romantic encounters on the show are initiated by the woman. We also see that he, for all practical purposes, has an open relationship with Troi. Notice what happens when they go on shore leave in "Menage a Trois" ? As soon as all formalities about rank and such are dropped, they pick up where they left off when Riker got promoted.

As a result, issues like the short skirts, the male crewmember's obvious interest in certain females and such are undone because it's not presented as taboo for a man to be sexually interested in a woman.

I can also counter any allegations of sexism about the role of the Yeomen on the show by asking exactly how many female red shirts there were ?

 

[Kegg]

Not every statement of fact is meant to serve some argument or ideological agenda.

Didn't say that.

So from a '60s perspective, it would've been seen as progressive to show the "secretaries" in a naval service being female.

As indicated in the same scene that introduced Colt; which has the added bonus of making Pike a trifle bit of a sexist jackass.

 

[Pauln6]

I can also counter any allegations of sexism about the role of the Yeomen on the show by asking exactly how many female red shirts there were ?

I can only recall one female security guard in TAS, followed by Tasha in TNG season one, and then nobody else (apart from alternate Tasha) until season 4, when they finally introduce mixed security teams - so it was a long time coming! As far as I can recall, we have yet to see an all-female security team, in spite of the numerous examples of all-male teams.