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The Walking Dead Season 6 Discussion

Only someone with a death wish would assume "well, i've never seen anything of that size before, so it does not exist!" No rational mind reaches conclusions like that.

There you go again with the strident absolutes...

Gen. George Custer's rational mind came to exactly that kind of conclusion concerning the Indians at Little Big Horn. Being wrong didn't mean he had a death wish...he was just wrong. Human beings are allowed to be wrong.

The Governor was wise in assuming--before learning anything from Merle--that the prison group could be larger. Why? Because your own experience and/or arrangement is not the model for the rest of the world. If it worked like that, then Woodbury and Terminus would have been as small as Rick's various collection of people.

And they might still be around, because Rick's various collection of people have a tendency to win.

Rick himself has encountered larger groups, so he should not assume that one base was the beginning and end of Negan's forces. No one needs to read the comics to see the sense in that.

And there's no evidence anywhere on screen that he's made that assumption, anywhere. His entire battle plan of "kill them in their sleep" was obviously based on the idea that at the time he had no fucking idea how many bad guys he was actually facing, so he picked the one tactic that would allow him to begin attrition without an alert sounding and waking everybody up. He doesn't know and he isn't pretending he knows. That's just an assumption on your part based on misreading the canon you love referencing so damn much.
 
The Governor was wise in assuming--before learning anything from Merle--that the prison group could be larger. Why? Because your own experience and/or arrangement is not the model for the rest of the world. If it worked like that, then Woodbury and Terminus would have been as small as Rick's various collection of people.
And they might still be around, because Rick's various collection of people have a tendency to win.

Also, The Governor's group showed surprise at The Group taking the prison, a handful of people clearing out all of the walkers there. So they figured there were either more, or they were better skilled. That's why they chose a less-aggressive approach, they didn't think they could handle it given what they know.

With The Group and Negan they've little reason to believe they're any meaningful threat other than apparently them puffing up their chests when in a position of power. (Encountering Daryl on the road, and the show of force at The Hilltop.)

Though Rick, oddly, says the group Daryl encountered didn't pose much of a threat...

Because Daryl had an RPG. Without the RPG things would have happened very differently.
 
Only someone with a death wish would assume "well, i've never seen anything of that size before, so it does not exist!" No rational mind reaches conclusions like that. The Governor was wise in assuming--before learning anything from Merle--that the prison group could be larger. Why? Because your own experience and/or arrangement is not the model for the rest of the world. If it worked like that, then Woodbury and Terminus would have been as small as Rick's various collection of people. Rick himself has encountered larger groups, so he should not assume that one base was the beginning and end of Negan's forces. No one needs to read the comics to see the sense in that.

All rational minds reach conclusions like that. And a good deal of the time, those conclusions aren't challenged by reality at all. If you live in a world full of chihuahua's and pincers and I ask you to walk my dog, you're probably not going to expect a Great Dane or a Newfoundlander.

More importantly, no one is saying that Rick believes this one group must be all there is to the Neganites. What we're saying is that 1) he does not yet have any actual evidence that there's any more to them, so he cannot act on information he does not have and 2) even once he finds out there are more, he would still be insane (based on all their previous experience of the zombie apocalypse) to expect the kind of numbers that we're talking about in this thread. Because the only reason we're talking about those numbers is because we have special knowledge that Negan is a different kind of threat than anything they've faced before.
 
They did, indeed, kill The Saviors "for food." But it was an added benefit that they ridded themselves of a threat that was out there.

It's interesting how people think the trailer at the bottom of the lake is an option. Maybe I've missed something, but I don't think they have an abundance of SCUBA gear or access to a crane with which they can effectively recover any items from the trailer that may still be salvageable, or the truck itself.

How would they get the items out of the truck and to the surface without being able to see (seriously, have you ever tried to hold your eyes open underwater? It's hard enough to do in a bathtub with clean, clear, water let alone a lake filled with dirty water, mud and grime. That's why underwater goggles exist or breathe, they'd have to be underwater for lengths of time in order to open the trailer door, gather items and bring them to surface. Lengths of time longer than any of them could likely hold their breath. They'd need re breathers. Then to make swimming underwater against flotation easier they'd need weight belts. And this is assuming they have decent swimming skills.

The truck isn't an option outside of a massive project that'd need some level of preparation before hand as well as finding some specialized equipment. Even if they could get their hands on a crane, and operate it, they'd still need SCUBA gear in order to attach the crane's chains to the truck.

And even if they COULD do all of this, The Saviors would still be out there and still be a potential threat. One they know is out there. As Rick said, it's better to do this now on their terms than to be surprised by it later, especially when they have an "in" on the compound with the hostage recovery.
Maybe my point of view is flawed being that I grew up with a lake next to my house and the fact that my brother once found a toy car in it, resulting in fruitless expeditions to the bottom (it was fun, we were kids), but we never needed scuba gear for it, and I'm sure if there was an unlocked trailer at the bottom of it, we would have gone through it. In a zombie world, I'd duct tape some dishwashing gloves to my arms (and on the gloves, enough to be bite proof/or a full body duct tape suit if able) and keep a knife on my hip in case something grabs at me, then have at it.
 
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tow truck and/or a winch ought to be enough to take care of it. Don't have to dive and bring everything up, just gotta get a cable around a tow point in the front and see if you can't get it moving forward again. Seems pretty doable, regardless of the other stuff going on. Easy? no. But not a lost cause.
 
Rick did not use Merle to deliver Michonne to The Governor, Merle made that choice on his own because he realized Rick would never go through with it. Rick himself realized it was wrong to deliver Michonne on "a chance" at safety.

Watch the episode again.

Merle kidnapped Michonne on his own

You need to watch the episode again. The following is the complete dialogue from "This Sorrowful Life," where Rick approaches Merle with his plan to deliver Michonne to The Governor:

Rick: If we give the Governor Michonne, Woodbury stands down. I don't like it, but it's what needs to be done, We need to make it quiet. We need your help with that.

Merle
: You ain't told any of the others, huh?

Rick
: Just Hershel, Daryl, and you.

Merle
: Hmph. The inner circle. I'm honored. You know, when we went out on runs, he'd bash somebody's skull, slash somebody's throat. He'd say, 'never waste the bullets.' I always thought it was just an excuse.

You go on, give 'em that girl. He ain't gonna kill her, you know. He's gonna...do things to her. Probably take out one of her eyes, Both of 'em, most likely.

You'd let that happen? For a shot? Phew! You're as cold as ice, Officer Friendly.

You gonna need wire, not rope. Wire--nothin' she could chew through. You know somthin'? You're right--I don't know why I do the things I do. Never did. I'm a damn mystery to me.But I know you, Rick. Yeah, I thought alot about you.You ain't got the spine for it.

Rick: We need to get her to the Governor by noon.

There is no debating it: not only was he asking Merle to hand Michonne over to Governor--even after Merle carefully told him about the Governor's brutality, and what he would likely do to Michonne. That's no "good guy," as he even considered the Governor's offer--playing judge over the life of a free individual.


Carol's conscious has her operating in a normal 21st century world, something that no longer applies and will likely end up getting her, or someone she cares for, killed.

And the strongest survivalist in the group? Please. Unearned praise. Again.

Prove that she's not--which requires more than some snide remark.

In this world our characters now live in it's kill or be killed.Our group kills for protection and for defense

Butchering the Termites was not purely for survival. It was sadism, and again, the "wasting bullets" line was simply bullshit, since only hours earlier, Rick had no concern for wasting bullets when he wanted the escapees to surround the Terminus fences and kill whoever was left. If wasting bullets was not a concern at that time, then they had the ammunition to quickly execute the Termites in the church. But that was not the plan. The plan was to butcher the Termites.

There's no nice little bow one can tie on that to justify the act.

And can Carol really do no fucking wrong to you people?

The only wrong committed by Carol was accepting Rick's arbitrary decision to kick her out of the prison. But her not putting up much of a fight was an example of her not wanting to cause trouble. I'm sure she's probably "guilty" of some imagined wrong for doing that, too.

Here, we're dealing with three women who've expressed little reluctance to kill people and are very much an active threat at the end of the episode as Maggie and Carol try to make their escape and now, ehhh, let's not kill them even though they're part of a larger group that's a big threat.

Wait a second--according to member grendelsbayne:

From the perspective of the characters, the idea that he might have hundreds of people is so far out of their experience of what this world is like now that it would be utterly absurd to even suggest it

So, by this reasoning, Carol's desire to avoid killing them was correct. After all, they should not even entertain the idea that the enemies encountered might be part of a larger group........

Seriously, Carol Lovers, your loyalty is now contradicting itself.

There's no contradiction; you seem to be arguing from the standpoint of fans watching; I am talking about it from the character's perspective. Carol having a crisis of conscience about what she's done. Frankly, I think she would not be suffering in the manner presented if her "kill list" did not include Lizzie. She (Lizzie) was the beginning of the turning point (partially explored in 5A), where Carol was willing to kill under the idea of defense, but there's no way to shoehorn Lizzie into that category, and as she fought with Morgan over the Wolves (her drive intensified after her newfound ASZ friends were killed). While eliminating an actual threat...you know, a threat that invaded your territory and took lives...

Also, The Governor's group showed surprise at The Group taking the prison, a handful of people clearing out all of the walkers there. So they figured there were either more, or they were better skilled. That's why they chose a less-aggressive approach, they didn't think they could handle it given what they know.

A "less aggressive approach?" This is the same group (Woodbury) who had no trouble executing a National Guard unit. On paper and as a practical matter, a well trained NG unit with top of the line military weapons would trigger more doubts about feasibility than some rag-tag group with members (Glenn & Maggie) who were so easily captured by Merle.

Though Rick, oddly, says the group Daryl encountered didn't pose much of a threat...

Because Daryl had an RPG. Without the RPG things would have happened very differently.

Why would Rick say that? Did Daryl fail to tell him the mouthpiece Savior was a second away from shooting Sasha & Abraham? How that's not a threat is a mystery.
 
There is no debating it: not only was he asking Merle to hand Michonne over to Governor--even after Merle carefully told him about the Governor's brutality, and what he would likely do to Michonne. That's no "good guy," as he even considered the Governor's offer--playing judge over the life of a free individual.

Rick was making plans to do it with Merle and the plan laid out, and Merle's advice. He wasn't telling Merle how to do it and then "acting" for the rest of the fucking episode like he had no idea where Michonne was and what happened to her. Did you not read the recaps I posted from Wikipedia AND the AMC Recap? AMC, you know the people who're behind the making of the episode and, thus, would have an accurate recap up?

Rick had not yet made the final decision to hand over Michonne or gotten to a point where it was ready to happen. Merle did it on his own because he *knew* Rick wouldn't do it and Merle wanted to save his brother. Rick *himself* tells the Group about the offfer, that he considered it, and then backed out and now didn't know where Michonne was because Merle ran off with her.

Rick did not. Repeat. DID NOT, give the final go-ahead to hand-over Michonne. He was, more-or-less, set on doing it, yes, but he hadn't yet "pressed the button", so to speak. He was going to hand her over, personally, with an entourage. But Merle acted before Rick could set things into motion. He was getting his own bindings after Merle had ALREADY left when he saw the vision on Lori that persuaded him to not to hand Michonne over. He was SURPRISED and UPSET when he found Michonne and Merle gone! Seems like a lot to go through to keep up his ruse of not being involved.

I've watched the episode recently, in this discussion I've gone through recaps of the episode. Under NO interpretation of it did Merle act under Rick's direction. Merle acted ENTIRELY ON HIS OWN. Rick *was* going to hand over Michonne, he did talk to Merle about it, Merle DID give advice but Rick decided not to hand her over BEFORE the point he intended to leave with her!

He changes his mind BEFORE realizing Michonne and Merle are gone!

Merle acted to hand over Michonne ALONE!
 
Wait a second--according to member grendelsbayne:

So, by this reasoning, Carol's desire to avoid killing them was correct. After all, they should not even entertain the idea that the enemies encountered might be part of a larger group........

Actually, no. Not even close. They should not be expected to entertain the idea of the group being ridiculously huge. And Rick cannot act on information about the potential for more (reasonable numbers of) enemies out there before he has it. But I've already said multiple times that the first evidence of there being more out there was seen now by Carol and Maggie, and it was seen before Carol made that decision, so she actually does have reason to expect more of them. In point of fact, she knows 100% there are more of them, because she's heard them on the walkie saying they'll be there in 10 minutes.

Also, the size of the group doesn't even make any real difference in such a situation. The termites weren't part of a larger group, but they still came after everyone and successfully kidnapped and ate (part of) Bob.
 
Rick was making plans to do it with Merle and the plan laid out, and Merle's advice. He wasn't telling Merle how to do it and then "acting" for the rest of the fucking episode like he had no idea where Michonne was and what happened to her.

Sigh. Watch the damn episode, where the dialogue I posted was specific. You are performing a ridiculous amount of blinders-on gymnastics in order to protect Rick. Not only was it his plan, but after hearing what Michonne was facing, he ended the Merle conversation not with "i've changed my mind," but sticking to getting the job done. Changing his mind in the 11th hour does not erase the fact he first concluded that the Michonne deal served his interests, and approached Merle about completing the task.

Nothing erases that gross act of self serving and/or vicious behavior--just as in the butchery in the Terminus/church scene. As a refresher, butchering the Termites was not purely for survival. It was sadism, and again, the "wasting bullets" line was simply bullshit, since only hours earlier, Rick had no concern for wasting bullets when he wanted the escapees to surround the Terminus fences and kill whoever was left. If wasting bullets was not a concern at that time, then they had the ammunition to quickly execute the Termites in the church. But that was not the plan. The plan was to butcher the Termites.

That is the point of the references--that Rick is not different than others in that world, hence the completely accurate assessment made by Paula in "The Same Boat"--

"You're not the good guys. You know that, right?"

Paula knows there is no way anyone--other than an isolationist like Eastman--survives the ZA without some degree of self interest, or an abandonment of any true moral structure.
 
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Agreed. It's not like anything is wrong with them being bad. Desperate times call for desperate measures and all that, and times won't get more desperate then a zombie outbreak within the fall of civilization.
 
does not erase the fact he first concluded that the Michonne deal served his interests, and approached Merle about completing the task.

Yes, he did intend on giving Michonne over and included Merle in on that plan. But then Merle entirely on his own went and got rope/bindings, made a ruse to get Michonne alone, knocked her out, bound her, and took her out to deliver her to The Governor himself. Dialogue from Merle clearly indicated he did not expect Rick to hold-up to his plan which is why he was doing it himself.

Rick goes to get bindings himself, sees the vision of Lori, decides not to through with it and goes to tell everyone he's not going to do it and finds Merle and Michonne gone.

Opening of the Episode:
Rick talks to Daryl and Herschel about the plan, Herschel doesn't like it and leaves. Daryl isn't 100% but is willing to help Rick do it. Rick says "we need someone else", implying that this is going to be a group task. Him, Daryl and someone else. That third person is Merle, Daryl offers to go talk to Merle but Rick wants to do it and do it alone.

It was not to be a one-man job, Rick seems to think it's for at least three people.

Rick Goes to talk to Merle:
Merle is searching for drug contraband in the prison bunks. Rick goes up to him and says, "We need your help."

Merle laughs.

Rick tells Merle that if they hand over Michonne Woodbury will stand down, "I don't like it, but it what needs to be done. We need to make it quiet. We need your help with that."

Merle goes into an extended monologue about the events, Michonne, what The Governor will do with her and why he does what he does. He's not sure. But he's thought a lot about Rick and doesn't believe Rick has the spine to deliver Michonne. Rick, "We need to get her to The Governor by noon," and he walks off.

OPENING CREDITS

Prison Yard
Rick watches as Michonne helps the others clear the walkers out of the prison yard., they set up the barbed-wire as "caltrops" in front of the gate. When they return inside the inner perimeter, Rick complements the idea and Daryl points out it was Michonne's. Rick and Michonne exchange looks/nods and Michonne says they don't have to win, just be more trouble than they're worth.

Prison Block Common Area
Merle watches the exchange from a window and scowls a bit, "Ain't no way."

Merle and Carol have a bit of an exchange about whether or not he's with the group. He says he's with his brother. Carol points out Daryl is with them. They have talk about Carol's change of personality now that she's not under her husband anymore, Merle takes note of this and calls her a "late bloomer." Carol wonders if Merle might be one too. Merle considers this.

Prison Work/Motor Room
Daryl finds Merle scavenging in there, Merle claims to be looking for meth. He and Daryl have a bit of an exchange, Daryl agrees Rick doesn't have the stomach to ultimately go through with the plan to hand-over Michonne, he shrugs the notion off saying "if he does he does; whatever he says goes."

Merle challenges Daryl's manhood and questions if anyone can do what needs to be done anymore and wonders aloud if maybe someone like him is needed. Someone willing to do dirty work. Daryl says he just wants his brother back. Merle watches him leave and we see he's been scavenging up telephone wires, not drugs.

Prison Building Perimeter
Rick is outside scavenging himself, he finds some CAT-5 cable on the ground and collects it. He has his nervous twitch in his hand, which we've seen a couple of time before as usually a sign he's doing something outside his moral comfort zone. (Like when he beat-up and threatened Merle on the rooftop in the second episode of the series.)

He winces and pinches the bridge of his nose in anguish and looks up to see a vision of pregnant Lori on a prison skywalk. Rick tries to dismiss the vision but cannot. He unravels the cord from his wrist in tosses it to the ground as it walks off, we see the skywalk now empty. All of this happens with Herschel reading a Biblical verse(s) over the scene (he's reading The Bible to Beth and Maggie in a prison common area.) I'm not great with parsing Biblical prose and I'm not familiar enough with Biblical verses or want to look them up right now, but I'm sure they have to deal with making moral decisions in tough situations.

Prison Common Area
Rick enters, Herschel goes up to Rick to voice his opinion that he doesn't want them to deliver Michonne. Rick says he can't/won't do it.

Somewhere in "The Tombs."
Merle and Michonne walk through under the pretense of clearing out walkers. Merle ambushes Michonne, knocking her out, he takes her sword and begins to bind her.

Somewhere in Route to Woodbury.
Merle explains what's happening to Michonne, about the offer, they appear to be in mid-conversation as Merle says he agrees with Michonne, "he would have blinked." Wryly, Michonne says, "not you." They talk some about the ambush, Merle says "I got it done, he wouldn't have," they talk more and Merle points out Rick was the guy who came back to the rooftop for Merle, he points out he's the guy needed to do the "dirty work."

Prison Lot
Rick approaches Daryl and tells him it's off, Daryl says he's not say handing over Michonne was the wrong call but taking their chances is the right one. He notices Rick's a bit "up" and asks what's wrong. Rick can't find Merle or Michonne.

Prison Work/Motor Room
They find evidence of what Merle was doing and conclude Merle is doing it on his own, Rick lets out a "dammit" and sets to go after Merle, Daryl says Rick can't track and goes in his place.

On the Road
Merle and Michonne talk more. Merle's talking out loud seemingly trying to justify what's he's doing to himself. He says that maybe doing this will save the prison and, by extension, Daryl.

Later, in a Car, on the Road
Michonne and Merle continue to talk about what's going on, Merle insisting he's doing what needs to be done. Now, here, the conversation *is* a bit odd and maybe contradictory but they also seem to speaking in hypotheticals. Michonne says Rick didn't ask [Daryl] to do this, Merle, "Because he wants it done," Michonne, "Because he respects him." This dialogue does seem to indicate Merle was asked to do this, but the rest of the episode doesn't support that as we never see Rick do it and Rick's behavior everywhere else suggests he'd not yet put whatever plan he had in motion.

Even Later, in a Car, on the Road
Michonne and Merle talk some more, Michonne gets through to Merle's conscious and he releases her. She eventually comes across Daryl on her way back to the prison, Daryl insists on continuing to look for his brother.

The Prison Lot
Rick gathers The Group and tells them about the deal with The Governor and how he had agreed to it and was going to hand over Michonne, but he's since changed his mind but Merle has already left with her and now he doesn't know if it's too late. Here the Ricktatorship, for a while, ends as he thinks things from now on should be group decisions.

Rick did not task Merle with delivering Michonne alone. Merle acted entirely on his own.

There's that one, out of place, ambiguous line spoken in a hypotheticals that suggests this was not the case and everything else in the episode indicates that Rick had yet to press the "final button."

If talking to Merle was the "go" point of the plan why, then:

Why all the secrecy when it came to Merle's actions for the rest of the episode?

Why did Merle covertly get the wires and ambush Michonne alone?

Why have Merle do this alone when Michonne has shown herself to be capable of handling a group of attackers? Merle himself knows how well Michonne can take on a group of live attackers and would point out they'd need more than just him in order to do this. (He only took the chance in doing it alone because he knew Rick would not go through with it.)

Why Merle's constantly questioning Rick's ability to stick to his plan if Merle was already carrying it out?

Why the entire character arc for Rick not only for this season but in this episode with him wrestling with his conscious when it comes to handing over Michonne? If he'd already sent Merle off to do it?

Why the shock, surprise and confusion when Merle and Michonne come up missing?

Why was Rick looking for bindings when he'd already tasked Merle with carrying things out on his own?

Why all of the plural pronouns when talking about the plan instead of singular ones. ("You" instead of "we.")

Why did Michonne go back to the prison and trust Rick if she knew he agreed to hand her over and put his plan into action?

Why involve Daryl or Herschel at all? Why not just go straight to Merle and say, "you and me have to do this without the others knowing." I mean, if his plan is for Merle to just carry this out alone why tell anyone else?

Why did Merle leave the prison without a vehicle if he wasn't sneaking out?

If Rick DID do this, why the "character redemption" for Merle when he lets Michonne go? To really suggest Merle is a better person than Rick?

If Rick DID do this, why the character arc with him wrestling with the decision he's already made and set into motion?

If Rick DID do this, why was he just a sheriff in the real-world when he's able to put on such a good act with behaving like Merle's actions were unexpected and not part of the plan? Hell he doesn't just do it for the benefit of Daryl and the rest of The Group he does it when alone for his own and OUR benefit! (The scene with the wires outside.)

Rick did not give Merle the go-ahead to ambush and kidnap Michonne and take her to The Governor alone. He was planning for them to do it as a group, particularly since it's unlikely he'd trust Merle to do it alone and also because Rick would likely want to confront The Governor himself to make sure the final deal went down smooth. It's very unlikely he would have trusted Merle's diplomatic tact when it came to hand-over, or for Merle to not flip and help The Govenror take the prison.

Rick thought he had settled on handling over Michonne but in the episode he's clearly wrestling with the notion and isn't "final" on it yet. When he speaks of it he mostly sounds more like he's trying to convince himself more than the people he's talking to, almost like he wants someone to question him on it or offer a counter argument. Probably why he talks mostly with the more "passive" or subordinate members of The Group and one he trusts and looks to for his moral compass.

Rick didn't want to hand over Michonne. He never really wanted to, he wrestled with the idea quite a bit. Part of him saw it as the only way for survival, the other part saw it as the wrong thing to do. Hence the Lori visions, she's there to try and keep him on a moral track. He fails the test when he throws Tyrese's and Sasha's group out but he passes it here and ultimately when he lets in the Woodbury survivors, where the Lori visions stop.
 
Yes, he did intend on giving Michonne over and included Merle in on that plan. But then Merle entirely on his own went and got rope/bindings, made a ruse to get Michonne alone, knocked her out, bound her, and took her out to deliver her to The Governor himself. Dialogue from Merle clearly indicated he did not expect Rick to hold-up to his plan which is why he was doing it himself.

You admit Rick intended to hand Michonne over, so there it ends. You're no good guy if you even consider handing over a fellow human being to--according to Merle--a monster guaranteed to put her through torture and death. It matters not if he changed his mind--it was his idea, which he held onto after Hershel tried to talk him out of it, and hearing what she would face in the hands of the Governor.

There's that one, out of place, ambiguous line spoken in a hypotheticals that suggests this was not the case and everything else in the episode indicates that Rick had yet to press the "final button."

No one discusses a direct plan with the one you want to carry it out, unless you expect that person to do exactly that, which--as laid out in the dialogue:

Rick: We need to get her to the Governor by noon.

--that was Rick's parting--and in fact--last word ever spoken to Merle. He did not say, "well, wait until I set her up," or "wait for my final word."

Rick: We need to get her to the Governor by noon.

...was his final word before walking away. He had the expectation of Merle carrying out the plan.

If talking to Merle was the "go" point of the plan why, then:

Why all the secrecy when it came to Merle's actions for the rest of the episode?

Because he already knew Hershel and others would be opposed to it, so he wanted no opposition to his plan, hence his parting words to Merle about what time she had to be delivered. Secrecy does not alter his intent.


If Rick DID do this, why the "character redemption" for Merle when he lets Michonne go? To really suggest Merle is a better person than Rick?

It was a focus on Merle alone--to conclude Merle knew handing Michonne over to a sadist was not the right thing to do, but It appears clear that he also knew a life of self-serving acts, murder, etc., could not continue, which explains why he told Michonne he could not go back with her. There was a resolution with Merle, rather than someone moving up the ladder of one reprehensible act to another.

If Rick DID do this

There is no "if"--no one brainwashed Rick into accepting the Governor's plan, then creating his end of it to complete the deal. As noted earlier, Rick did not say, "well, wait until I set her up," or "wait for my final word" when parting with Merle. That's the point--he was willing to hand a fellow person over to monster for his own interests. Changing his mind will never erase that choice.[/quote]
 
Is that... Is that what were arguing? I was never against or denying that Rick intended to hand Michonne over, that was obviously and clearly the case. But he never pressed the final button to put his plan into motion and the actual act of Merle handing over Michonne over was done entirely by Merle himself.

Yes, Rick was going to hand Michonne over but he also seems to be still grappling with this hence why he's putting it off and putting it off, talking with some others about and seeing the visions of Lori. Some part of him, obviously, knows it is not right.

Daryl sums up the the entire thing in his bit of dialogue, "I'm not saying [handing Michonne over] was the right call, but [noting handing her over, fighting] is the better one."

Pretty much the entire humor condition, which The Walking Dead explores in this apocalyptic scenario, is exploring. We all wrestle with moral choices and decisions in some way or another. No they're not all cases of whether or not to send someone to their death and they don't all take us days to land on, but we all wrestle with these things in some manner. And in many cases we may make a decision that's "not right" and before we act on that decision we may see "the light" that let's us know there's a better, or right, decision to make.

It doesn't matter what Rick was considering doing or had decided to do because in the end he choose NOT to do it, just so happened when he made that choice it was too late because Merle acted on his own and set off to deliver Michonne. Because, as seen in the episode, Merle saw himself that Rick would never actually go through with it.
 
Is that... Is that what were arguing? I was never against or denying that Rick intended to hand Michonne over, that was obviously and clearly the case. But he never pressed the final button to put his plan into motion and the actual act of Merle handing over Michonne over was done entirely by Merle himself.

You're still skipping over the fact his last statement to Merle was about the delivery time. That is an affirmative statement--a position free of, "uh, let me think about it, and i'll get back to you," or "don't do anything until I give the word." In other words, by that being his last statement--with no questions left hanging in the air--that was (as you put it) pushing the button.


We all wrestle with moral choices and decisions in some way or another. No they're not all cases of whether or not to send someone to their death and they don't all take us days to land on, but we all wrestle with these things in some manner. And in many cases we may make a decision that's "not right" and before we act on that decision we may see "the light" that let's us know there's a better, or right, decision to make.

I'm still waiting for Rick to decide to see the light, instead pf going the violent, controlling route.

Merle saw himself that Rick would never actually go through with it.

He also referred to Rick as being "cold," so that was a strong indicator this was not the same Rick he last saw on the rooftop of the department store. Merle thought Rick was not a sympathetic man anymore--but calculating...bottom line no matter what that meant.
 
Ha! ...and then, Trekker's nap ended!

Anyway, episode 14 - "Twice as Far"--

So much personal confusion and conflict.

Carol: Going where? ..and will she just end up a captive of Negan? Or Daryl, while on his retrieval mission? Since the episode ended with her V.O., and the focus on Morgan, what role will he play in her fate?

Rosita and Spencer: Spencer--still alone in the aftermath of losing his entire family--is looking for stability, but he must realize she's only giving him rebound action. Maybe he's just inexperienced.

Abraham & Eugene: "you've outlived your usefulness to me" - Eugene grew a sack, but is the concept of a polite message lost on these people? But, I guess after the way Abraham dumped Rosita, he sort of deserved it. But at least the two are not at each other's throats.

Eugene biting Dwight's privates was unexpected, to say the least.

Denise: Anytime the Most Inexperienced Person in the Zombie Apocalypse goes out on a run (and gets backstory and pages of dialogue never important enough to explore before), you know it will never end well. Gimple & company need to retire that bit of rinse and repeat.

No matter how much the Talking Dead motormouth tries to make anyone believe Denise was some big moment...it was not. She was a blink and you missed her character.

The pharmacy room: "Hush" scrawled on the walls--a child's shoe. Hmm....

Eugene & Denise:
Must be "I can prove myself" week in the ZA world.

Dwight: What an asshole. Of course, there has to be a final conflict between this guy and Daryl.
 
I had been spoiled on who dies & how in this episode earlier in the week. It was still a sad moment. Up until now I thought they would have given Denise her death from the comic with Tara taking the place of Holly from the comic.
So much for my ability to predict things on this show. Maybe Abraham will get her comic death now.:shrug:
 
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