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The Walking Dead Season 6 Discussion

Good episode.

I think we all knew where it was going and they really dragged it out for all it was worth which would have been annoying had it turned out that Carol was just acting but when it transpired that she was genuinely wrestling with her emotions, that justified giving us an episode where we all knew what the outcome would be. Dead gingers.

I think Morgan's influence may still be the death of her though.

I think getting all those guns (and whatever else) and compromising two of Negan's buildings ultimately justifies their actions. At the very least, they've sent a message that they're not to be trifled with. They've also garnered an ally in Hilltop.

I disliked the whole "we're all Negan" nonsense. There's building him up and then there's turning him into a cartoon.
 
Don't forget that they don't keep snapshots pinned next to their bunks (in the same place teenage boys put posters of hot girls, likely for the same reason) of all the people who's heads they've caved in with baseball bats.

They don't but they are just as brutal now. Rick and Glenn stabbed sleeping people in the head before they really knew just how bad they were . They took another groups word on it. Yeah they ran into a part of Negans group on motorcycles but it still doesn't justify killing people in their sleep even if they believe they re in the right. Rick also no longer seems to feel guilty about executing people that are basically defenseless now. I can definitely see Rick one day being as bad as the governor and killing innocent groups indiscriminately to justify having to eat. No our group of heroes are just as bad now or nearly as bad as anyone they have met.
 
They don't but they are just as brutal now. Rick and Glenn stabbed sleeping people in the head before they really knew just how bad they were . They took another groups word on it. Yeah they ran into a part of Negans group on motorcycles but it still doesn't justify killing people in their sleep even if they believe they re in the right. Rick also no longer seems to feel guilty about executing people that are basically defenseless now. I can definitely see Rick one day being as bad as the governor and killing innocent groups indiscriminately to justify having to eat. No our group of heroes are just as bad now or nearly as bad as anyone they have met.

You can't say Rick's Group is "just as bad" as The Saviors or other groups when our group has yet to ambush people for their supplies on the roadway or forced another group to give them tribute for protection. Attacking another group that they *know* is a threat. (They have the name "Negan" to go on, Daryl's had an encounter with them already and knows what they are up to/want, so the story told to them by Jesus would be consistent with that.)

When The Group attacks an innocent group of people, who means them no harm, and attacks them or uses a show of force in order to gain supplies then we can say they're "the same" as The Saviors or even The Governor.

Until then, everything they've done to this point has been a form of self-defense. They had no reason to mistrust Jesus or Gregory given what they *know* about The Saviors (again, Daryl's encounter) that to that point Jesus has been open and trustworthy and the guys coming back to their community to kill Gregory on Negan's orders as a show of force and disappointment over their latest contribution.

Nothing Rick's group has done has even approached this level. Even when they attacked Woodbury, and killed some innocent people, they did it because The Governor had held two of their people hostage, with intent to kill, and was making another one of their group fight to the death in an arena. Much of what they had to go on was based on Michonne's word.

Majority of the deaths caused by The Group has been done in some manner of self defense.

The deaths caused by The Saviors have been a show of force for personal gain. The deaths caused by The Governor were done as a show of force, a measure of protection or even just for kicks.

The deaths caused by The Termites were done for food.

The deaths caused by The Wolves were out of some measure of personal gain and a sense of Anarchy.

Our Group? Their deaths still remain in a measure of self-defense, either reactionary or in the case of The Saviors pro-actively. They knew them to be a threat, based on Daryl's encounter alone, so they dealt with it on their terms rather than unprepared when The Saviors eventually found them.
 
When The Group attacks an innocent group of people, who means them no harm, and attacks them or uses a show of force in order to gain supplies then we can say they're "the same" as The Saviors or even The Governor.

It was still mass murder, which--in their experience--should tell them the worst has not presented itself. Rick only seems to (temporarily) learn lessons at the expense of his core group's lives.

Until then, everything they've done to this point has been a form of self-defense. They had no reason to mistrust Jesus or Gregory given what they *know* about The Saviors (again, Daryl's encounter) that to that point Jesus has been open and trustworthy and the guys coming back to their community to kill Gregory on Negan's orders as a show of force and disappointment over their latest contribution.

But Jesus--on camera--has not explained how many assets the Saviors have, or possible allies (if he even knows). For all anyone knows, the Saviors could exceed 200 in number. For all anyone knows, members of Hilltop could have been Savior moles.

Nothing Rick's group has done has even approached this level. Even when they attacked Woodbury, and killed some innocent people, they did it because The Governor had held two of their people hostage, with intent to kill, and was making another one of their group fight to the death in an arena. Much of what they had to go on was based on Michonne's word.

Ahh, but to save his own, Rick had Merle kidnap Michonne to hand over to the Governor--even after discussing it with Daryl and Hershel, knowing what the Governor would do to her. That's playing God with the life of an innocent. Very Governor-like.

Then. there's the butchery of the Terminus escapees; the "dont wanna waste the bullets" was Rick leading the conversation to his preconceived, vengeful conclusion. Hacking anyone to death is a loss of humanity (ironic, considering his victims in that episode), that is not recovered. Once you cross that line, it is a part of who you are.

Then, there's the Grady Memorial incident; before Tyreese's objection, Rick wanted to go on a throat slashing run. Absolute mass murder, and wanted to save Dawn for himself (which was not necessary, for if rescue was the goal, anyone encountering Dawn should have the "right" to take her out).

So, as the redhead Savior said in last night's episode, Rick's group are not the good guys; she said that without knowing anything about them, because I believe she reasoned that any group surviving this long in the ZA is not doing it being the Peace Corps.

This is one of the reasons Carol is struggling with her past--she sees the killing under the notion of preserving life as standing in stark contrast with humanity.
 
Rick has certainly crossed the line at times and been incredibly brutal and ruthless with his enemies, but again, these have not been innocent people he's killed. And I think the show has always done a good job establishing as much before Rick and his group start going to work wiping them out.

Obviously in today's world Rick's actions would be considered horrible and over the top, but giving what his group is living through (and all the incredibly dangerous people they've had to deal with) I think they're staying about as decent and human as they can possibly afford to be.
 
But Jesus--on camera--has not explained how many assets the Saviors have, or possible allies (if he even knows). For all anyone knows, the Saviors could exceed 200 in number. For all anyone knows, members of Hilltop could have been Savior moles.

For all anyone knows, that guy whose parking spot you steal might turn out to be a six hundred pound cage fighter with rage issues. But the odds of that actually happening are extremely low, so people continue to steal parking spots.

The only reason anyone here is even talking about 'how big is Negan's group?' is because we all know - due to the comics and the fact that this is a tv show that follows laws of story buildup, etc - that there has to be a lot more to it than what we've seen. From the perspective of the characters, the idea that he might have hundreds of people is so far out of their experience of what this world is like now that it would be utterly absurd to even suggest it. And the only actual evidence they've seen that there might be anything other than that one building, is the information heard by Carol and Maggie in this episode - which Rick and the others don't know about yet.
 
Ahh, but to save his own, Rick had Merle kidnap Michonne to hand over to the Governor--even after discussing it with Daryl and Hershel, knowing what the Governor would do to her. That's playing God with the life of an innocent. Very Governor-like.

Uh, no. He didn't. Merle kidnapped Michonne on his own to deliver to The Governor in order to, hopefully, save his brother. He was afraid Rick ("Officer Friendly") didn't have the balls to go through with delivering Michonne to The Governor on the "chance" of ending the conflict. And he was right considering as Rick wrestled with his conscious he opted to not deliver Michonne to The Governor and was visibly shocked when he found that Merle had taken her himself prompting Daryl to go out to get them.

It's easy to see things your way when you ignore events as they actually happened.


Rick has certainly crossed the line at times and been incredibly brutal and ruthless with his enemies, but again, these have not been innocent people he's killed. And I think the show has always done a good job establishing as much before Rick and his group start going to work wiping them out.

Obviously in today's world Rick's actions would be considered horrible and over the top, but giving what his group is living through (and all the incredibly dangerous people they've had to deal with) I think they're staying about as decent and human as they can possibly afford to be.

Agreed. Even, as I understand it, Negan is presented as someone whose point of view and logic is somewhat sound, it still doesn't negate the fact that he has attacked and killed other people and groups in order to loot supplies from them and demands future tributes for "protection" from further attack. (They're not even offering to keep them protected from walkers, just from The Saviors.)

In the world they're living in, Rick's group is still on the "good" side of the moral line because they've yet to kill others for a direct personal gain. If we see Daryl threaten to kill someone for their vehicle, or Rick kill someone as a show of force in order to demand another group give them supplies and food, or we see someone in the group kill people out of fun/sport and then tape Polaroids of their corpses over their bed *then* we can say The Group has crossed a moral line. But right now, they're on the "good" side of that line and only flirted with the edge in their pro-active attack of this Saviors Camp, but didn't cross it since from the information they had -reliable information- the Saviors were "bad" people who were a threat.
 
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... In the world they're living in, Rick's group is still on the "good" side of the moral line because they've yet to kill others for a direct personal gain...
They didn't kill the Saviors just to rid the world of evil, they did it for food as well. That "this is how we survive" crap that Rick said was just BS (Shane would be rolling in his grave if he was buried). Like I said before, their backs wasn't against a wall before making their decision. They still have a trailer of canned food at the bottom of that lake. It was a preemptive strike against something they may have happened (regardless of how likely). True, that Savior biker sect threatened Daryl and company but that doesn't justify killing the rest of the group. That logic went over Rick's head when he took in Woodbury's remaining populous after the Governor's group attacked the prison.
 
They did, indeed, kill The Saviors "for food." But it was an added benefit that they ridded themselves of a threat that was out there.

It's interesting how people think the trailer at the bottom of the lake is an option. Maybe I've missed something, but I don't think they have an abundance of SCUBA gear or access to a crane with which they can effectively recover any items from the trailer that may still be salvageable, or the truck itself.

How would they get the items out of the truck and to the surface without being able to see (seriously, have you ever tried to hold your eyes open underwater? It's hard enough to do in a bathtub with clean, clear, water let alone a lake filled with dirty water, mud and grime. That's why underwater goggles exist or breathe, they'd have to be underwater for lengths of time in order to open the trailer door, gather items and bring them to surface. Lengths of time longer than any of them could likely hold their breath. They'd need re breathers. Then to make swimming underwater against flotation easier they'd need weight belts. And this is assuming they have decent swimming skills.

The truck isn't an option outside of a massive project that'd need some level of preparation before hand as well as finding some specialized equipment. Even if they could get their hands on a crane, and operate it, they'd still need SCUBA gear in order to attach the crane's chains to the truck.

And even if they COULD do all of this, The Saviors would still be out there and still be a potential threat. One they know is out there. As Rick said, it's better to do this now on their terms than to be surprised by it later, especially when they have an "in" on the compound with the hostage recovery.
 
You know, it's amazing. You'd think after all the true assholes they've had to face and survive it would be considered a good thing that Rick's group is finally putting a will to fight and a will to survive above all other considerations, but some of you have taken on such a strident, moralistic stance on the issue that I don't want to be anywhere near any of you if a real apocalypse happens. If I had to rely on such pantywaisted thinking I'd probably be dead within a week.

Economist Thomas Sowell once said "If the war for civilization comes down to the wimps versus the barbarians, the barbarians are going to win." So fine. I concede the point to all you complainers: Rick's group are turning into barbarians. And guess what: They're Winning!

They faced the Governor and won. They faced the Termites and won. They faced a Wolf invasion and won. They faced the claimers and won. They faced the hospital police and won. They faced the Negan(s) in three separate engagements and won. And each time they became more and more brutal in order to come out of the engagement alive and well. This is a good thing, because this is a war for civilization, and only the barbarians will live to see the end of it.

If that's Rick's group, bravo, Semper Fi and carry on.
 
It was still mass murder, which--in their experience--should tell them the worst has not presented itself. Rick only seems to (temporarily) learn lessons at the expense of his core group's lives.

"Murder" is a legal construct of a civilization that no longer exists. The Group's experience has been pretty consistent: Other organized armed groups will threaten their existence. It was pretty clear that the Saviors wanted to locate their settlement to exploit it, and also that Alexandria was having some problems with food resources. Once the Group had knowledge of the Saviors' stronghold, preemptively eliminating them there rather than waiting to engage them later, on probably less favorable terms, was a sound strategic decision. Killing them in their beds, well, not pleasant but effective and less risky. Plus they captured what looked like a pretty good arsenal.

I do agree, though, that the series is intentionally scrutinizing the blurry lines between what is acceptable for survival and what is just wanton. But the moral calculations are weighing heavily toward "what helps you and yours survive equals 'good.'"
 
I suspect, if anything, that the major scrutinization in this storyline is going to be about Negan's group, more than the Alexandrians. The idea of the Saviors as a potential future for a group like the Alexandrians - a ghost of apocalypse future to warn them against going too far down a certain path and forgetting their basic humanity. In that light, they may see certain similarities between themselves and the Saviors and cross some lines in the fight against them, but at the end of the day, they won't cross all the way over to the kind of tyrannical ways that they've always fought against.

Or, maybe a few of them will and will eventually get written out - but the majority of the group will remain in at least somewhat morally justifiable territory, because if they didn't most people would stop watching.
 
After a few mid season duds TWD comes roaring back with a classic episode which serves to remind me why I sit through the duds. Fantastic episode.
 
Good episode.



I disliked the whole "we're all Negan" nonsense. There's building him up and then there's turning him into a cartoon.
I don't see it as nonsense...I see it as a smart strategy by Negan to make he doesn't get assassinated, and a good way to confuse newcomers who might threaten his power.

Also, there might be some cultish thing going on to keep control of his army.

The maniac with a wired bat that he gives a name -- THAT seems like a cartoon.


In the world they're living in, Rick's group is still on the "good" side of the moral line because they've yet to kill others for a direct personal gain. If we see Daryl threaten to kill someone for their vehicle, or Rick kill someone as a show of force in order to demand another group give them supplies and food, or we see someone in the group kill people out of fun/sport and then tape Polaroids of their corpses over their bed *then* we can say The Group has crossed a moral line. But right now, they're on the "good" side of that line and only flirted with the edge in their pro-active attack of this Saviors Camp, but didn't cross it since from the information they had -reliable information- the Saviors were "bad" people who were a threat.

Most of the time, sliding across the moral line isn't like crossing a race finish line. It's a lot more subtle than that. It's giving up even just a little bit of integrity (or compassion ) each time. So by the time you've realized you've crossed the line, it already happened. So Negan & the Governor might be 9-10, but our heroes are wavering between 4.6 and 5.3

I think what makes this season really good is that we really have to hash out -- ARE they doing the right thing?? And Carol's questioning of herself...while it could put her in danger...it could also make her a much better human being.
 
I don't see it as nonsense...I see it as a smart strategy by Negan to make he doesn't get assassinated, and a good way to confuse newcomers who might threaten his power.

That doesn't add up. What does it benefit YOU personally to claim to be Negan? And more specifically it was the "we're all Negan" line that I was referring to as nonsense. She clearly wasn't saying that as an attempt to protect Negan's identity but rather to build up his ultimnate mystery bad guy status.

Also, there might be some cultish thing going on to keep control of his army.

That makes more sense but the people in Alicia Witt's gang didn't seem especially cultish in nature. They were cynical, independent, bitter and fairly rational individuals. I think it was just a bad line and will be exposed as such once we meet Negan.

They'll build hm up. I have a feeling they're gonna try sell him as the good guy and throw some muddy water at who the good guys/bad guys really are (hence the line about Rick's group not being the good guys).
 
From the perspective of the characters, the idea that he might have hundreds of people is so far out of their experience of what this world is like now that it would be utterly absurd to even suggest it

Only someone with a death wish would assume "well, i've never seen anything of that size before, so it does not exist!" No rational mind reaches conclusions like that. The Governor was wise in assuming--before learning anything from Merle--that the prison group could be larger. Why? Because your own experience and/or arrangement is not the model for the rest of the world. If it worked like that, then Woodbury and Terminus would have been as small as Rick's various collection of people. Rick himself has encountered larger groups, so he should not assume that one base was the beginning and end of Negan's forces. No one needs to read the comics to see the sense in that.

Uh, no. He didn't. Merle kidnapped Michonne on his own to deliver to The Governor in order to, hopefully, save his brother. He was afraid Rick ("Officer Friendly") didn't have the balls to go through with delivering Michonne to The Governor on the "chance" of ending the conflict.

Watch the episode; it was Rick's vicious plan. He told Merle what to do, and it was set in motion before Rick found a soul and decided he could not go through with it.






In the world they're living in, Rick's group is still on the "good" side of the moral line because they've yet to kill others for a direct personal gain.

Taking life in no less horrible because someone attaches an "acceptable" motive to it. This is the reason Carol--perhaps the strongest survivalist among the group--is having her crisis of conscience. She has had and/or believed she had every reason to defend or kill on behalf of the group, yet she is now torn apart by her deadly legacy. Motive did not matter--the act of killing goes beyond subjective values.
 
Well, he certainly seemed surprised and confused on where she was when she went missing and needed Daryl to explain things to him. And also a bit unsure of himself when "coming out" to the rest of The Group when it came to telling them about The Governor's plan and saying how he almost went through with it when talking to Herschel and the rest of the group about now not being sure where she was.

Further when Michonne and Meryl talk in the car Michonne quickly figures out that Merle is doing this own and Merle himself conforms this saying he did it to hopefully save his brother because he didn't trust Rick to do this.

Merle uses a ruse to take Michonne out of the prison and then there's this from the Wikipedia Recap of the episode:

Rick is scavenging wire to tie up Michonne, intercut with Hershel praying with his daughters, when Rick hallucinates in the sunlight; Rick then abandons the task and his intentions to hand over Michonne. However, Merle has already decided to do the group's dirty work, recognizing this as his role as it was in Woodbury, and he blindsides Michonne. When Merle and Michonne are discovered missing, Daryl begins tracking them on foot.

....

Rick convenes a meeting and tells the group about The Governor's offer, confessing that he was going to go through with it but changed his mind, but Merle took Michonne on his own, and Daryl went to stop him. Rick admits it was wrong to not tell them and apologizes, stating it wasn't his call to make alone. He says the group is the greater good, collectively the reason they're still alive, and he won't be their Governor.

If Wikipedia isn't good enough from you, from AMC's own recap of the episode:

Outside, Rick finds a cable to bind Michonne. Lori appears on the catwalk. "You're not there," he mutters, cradling his head. When he looks up, Lori is still there. He throws the cable away and leaves.

Hershel, Maggie and Beth are praying in the cell block when Rick enters. He pulls Hershel aside and declares the deal is off.

Meanwhile, Merle takes Michonne to the tombs under the pretense of clearing out walkers. He then knocks her unconscious, drags her to the boiler room and binds her wrists.

Later, Merle walks Michonne down an abandoned road and explains the Governor's proposition. He says Rick would never have gone through with it. "But not you," she says.

Rick and Daryl search for Merle and Michonne, concluding that Merle abducted her. Daryl leaves to track them down.

Rick did not use Merle to deliver Michonne to The Governor, Merle made that choice on his own because he realized Rick would never go through with it. Rick himself realized it was wrong to deliver Michonne on "a chance" at safety.

Watch the episode again.

Taking life in no less horrible because someone attaches an "acceptable" motive to it. This is the reason Carol--perhaps the strongest survivalist among the group--is having her crisis of conscience. She has had and/or believed she had every reason to defend or kill on behalf of the group, yet she is now torn apart by her deadly legacy. Motive did not matter--the act of killing goes beyond subjective values.

Carol's conscious has her operating in a normal 21st century world, something that no longer applies and will likely end up getting her, or someone she cares for, killed.

And the strongest survivalist in the group? Please. Unearned praise. Again.

In this world our characters now live in it's kill or be killed. The morality play comes in when it comes to the reasons for killing. This is how humanity was like eons ago before the concept of civilization.

Our group kills for protection and for defense, in this one case they took a pro-active approach and killed a group of people the know to be a potential thread based on a personal encounter experience and the second-hand word they've gotten from Jesus.

And can Carol really do no fucking wrong to you people? I'll admit when Rick or Daryl or others have made mistakes but let's play some recap here.

In Season 6A, Morgan captures and chooses to spare a Wolf, rendering him unconscious and bound. Carol comes up and kills the man. Carol supporters were all for this. The Wolf was a threat, part of a group that was a threat, and it wasn't felt that any useful information could have been gotten from the captured Wolf. Morgan was foolish for his capture. She did what needed to be done, BAD ASS CAROL!

In Season 6B, as suddenly as she switched from abused, timid, former housewife to a bad-ass killer teaching kids about guns in the period of a couple Carol has made the switch again from this bad-ass killer to someone with a conscious who's more reluctant to kill.

She's captured by a people who are members of group we've been told are dangerous, and a person she is close to -Daryl- are dangerous. These people have captured her and Maggie and threatened their lives as well as Maggie's unborn child. These people are part of a group they've just taken part of a major attack on. When Maggie and Carol have their chance to escape, Maggie wants to finish what they started and kill the Neganettes but Carol thinks they should just get out of there and spare them. Even though the Neganettes could potentially track them back to The Hilltop or the ASZ or still be out there as a known threat. BAD ASS CAROL!

Huhh?!! How is it wrong to spare someone and right to kill them in one instance but not in the other? It's virtually the exact same scenario! The only difference is Morgans Wolf was captured, unconscious and bound! He wasn't a threat anymore! And, cool, Carol killed him!

Here, we're dealing with three women who've expressed little reluctance to kill people and are very much an active threat at the end of the episode as Maggie and Carol try to make their escape and now, ehhh, let's not kill them even though they're part of a larger group that's a big threat.

Seriously, Carol Lovers, your loyalty is now contradicting itself.
 
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