The Walking Dead Season 6 Discussion

[TREK_GOD_1]

There's also scene where he appears to be building something... a cage more than likely, and presumably meant for Rick. That cage might come in handy later on, whether or not Morgan's still alive and is the one to put someone inside it....

After considering the scene, I think its not impossible for Morgan to pull a Shane (by way of Eastman jail influence). By that, if you recall the following exchange from "Judge, Jury, Executioner" where Shane's usurper intentions were discussed with Andrea:

Shane: I say it's the guys that make up the rules, the boys that always have all the answers, even though their answers always prove wrong.

Andrea: So what are you gonna do? Rick's the leader of this group, - it's Hershel's farm.

Shane: Maybe we oughta change that.

Andrea: What, are you gonna lock 'em in a room and take their guns?

Shane: I don't know.

Andrea: That could get out of hand.

Shane: No, no, it won't.Okay? I won't let it. Listen, I don't-- I don't want anybody to get hurt, okay? Rick's my friend, Hershel-- He's all right by me.

Andrea: And Dale?

Shane: Dale got a big mouth, but he's harmless. Look, I just-- I wanna know what it's like to sleep without keeping one eye open. Ain't that-- ain't that what we all want?

Just switch Shane and Andrea with Morgan and if you consider her new outlook on life--Carol. Instead of being pro-kill or be killed like Shane, Morgan--to avoid disaster, or creating a culture of killing as the key component of survival--I could see him plotting to lock Rick up to prove he could settle things with humanistic diplomacy. That said, I can see him (or Carol) going to Negan and being killed for his stand while Rick is powerless to help him.

..or maybe a jail will not be a significant factor, and Morgan and/or Carol decide to move to the Hilltop community.

 

[Admiral2]

Yes, it does mean that for several inarguable reasons:

None of your reasons are "inarguable."

1. Rick's group of "best" fighters are few in number, and they have numerous weak people to defend at the ASZ. If any of the "best" are eliminated, their chances of survival take a grave plunge into the "not so good" category. Remember, they do not have reinforcements of types like Shane, Merle and others of that skill set.

And again, they would have the exact same problems no matter what action they took. If they just sat back and waited for Negan to attack those same best fighters would be at risk of being wiped out in the first wave and those same weak people would be left defenseless...assuming they didn't all starve to death first. There is no action without risk! The benefit to striking first is to damage the enemy and put off the day they come for you while they regroup.

2. Every indicator about Negan's group--from the car/gun attack pursuit, the deadly intentions of the motorcycle roadblock to the info on a head getting beat in (the returning man at Hilltop), and the apparent, serious fear all seem to have about the Saviors is screaming a danger not to be underestimated.

What does Rick's group do? Underestimate Negan's group,

Nonsense! No they haven't. Daryl didn't stop the motorcycle guys by beating his chest and doing a tarzan yell as he waded into the fray. He used a rocket-propelled grenade. Rick didn't attack the satellite compound by leading a cavalry charge in broad daylight screaming "Yo Joe!" He attacked at night and tried to kill the bad guys in their sleep, and when that plan went south the bad guys were still off balance enough for them to take the rest of the facility.

High explosives and night murder are not the tactics of people "underestimating" their enemies. I'd say they're taking the Savior threat pretty f---ing seriously.

with even Michonne wondering if one of the few they killed was Negan. Wha--?

Perfectly valid question. It's not like the bad guys are wearing rank insignia and name tags. Negan could have been there for any number of reasons.

Oh, and before the "survival" raid was over, two of their group (among their last, best fighters) are kidnapped--with ease.

Because they were both distracted arguing over whether one of them should have been there at all. I could have snuck up and captured them.

3.They have no idea how many are actually among the Saviors, yet they were far too confident in thinking they were going to just eliminate the enemy. Based on what?

Past experience eliminating groups of assholes with guns...or are you saying that never happened?

No intel means no attack

No it doesn't. The entire concept of "reconnaissance-in-force" is based on getting the intel while you attack.

Only a suicidal idiot--with not a clue about true size or numbers (notice how Jesus gives them no clue about that) would think they would get any advantage out of that attack

But they got an advantage out of the attack. The bad guys lost a base. Only an over-cautious idiot would think there's an advantage in never attacking.

When you know nothing about the enemy--other than a quickly building list of fear and extreme violence--you don't underestimate the enemy with an astoundingly presumptuous preemptive strike. That cost the Governor Woodbury and his second group. Think about it, of all of those people, only Tara still lives.

And again, leadership was the factor in both those losses, not preemption. The Governor was a martinet...a stupid martinet.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

None of your reasons are "inarguable."

Of course they are--as it is not theory, but coming from the episodes.

And again, they would have the exact same problems no matter what action they took. If they just sat back and waited for Negan to attack those same best fighters would be at risk of being wiped out in the first wave and those same weak people would be left defenseless...assuming they didn't all starve to death first. There is no action without risk! The benefit to striking first is to damage the enemy and put off the day they come for you while they regroup.

There's no action in reckless, tactically empty attacks on a force you know little about in terms of size, strength and what you do know is utterly bad. That's not action--that is walking up to the enemy and begging to be slaughtered.

Daryl didn't stop the motorcycle guys by beating his chest and doing a tarzan yell as he waded into the fray. He used a rocket-propelled grenade. Rick didn't attack the satellite compound by leading a cavalry charge in broad daylight screaming "Yo Joe!" He attacked at night and tried to kill the bad guys in their sleep, and when that plan went south the bad guys were still off balance enough for them to take the rest of the facility.

High explosives and night murder are not the tactics of people "underestimating" their enemies. I'd say they're taking the Savior threat pretty f---ing seriously.

Daryl was lucky. That's all. Sasha and Abraham were seconds from being killed. If gun-toting Savior did not send his man to take Daryl to the rear of the truck, they would be dead. With Rick's group, its almost always luck, not sound strategies.

Example:

• Terminus. It was pure luck that Carol happened to 1) come across Martin, 2) hear him make specific descriptions about people she knows and 3) was able to even have anything that would create the blast which saved Rick/Daryl/Bob/Glenn from being turned into food. They were seconds away, so their escape had nothing to do with this group being some great strike team. All of that train car forging of weapons and "screwing with the wrong people" meant nothing--until the lucky discovery by Carol and Tyreese.
  
• Joe's Claimed gang. It was pure luck that Daryl continued to follow them at the point the gang found Rick, Michonne and Carl. Daryl was intending to just break away, and if he did, the three in question would have been raped and murdered. That Rick was able to attack Joe heavily relied on Daryl creating the chaos of being beaten by the two claimers--it was a distraction that intensified the overall horror, and made Rick act out of desperation. Again, if Daryl did not show up--and ultimately help defeat the claimers, Michonne and the Grimes boys would not be here.

Rick didn't attack the satellite compound by leading a cavalry charge in broad daylight screaming "Yo Joe!" He attacked at night and tried to kill the bad guys in their sleep, and when that plan went south the bad guys were still off balance enough for them to take the rest of the facility.

Again, did they learn nothing from Terminus? Rick's group was watched even as they were sneaking around the fences. In this case, as soon as Rick's group were engaged, on that same night, Maggie and Carol were captured. Why? Because there were others watching / operating in the woods surrounding the satellite compound.

Who on earth would have not considered that?? Apparently, Rick's group did not, considering the expressions on their faces as the kidnapping was announced.

Past experience eliminating groups of assholes with guns...or are you saying that never happened?

See the luck examples. Rick's best moment was in the bar (season 2), where it was spur of the moment. His grand plans usually leaves companions dead. If you don't believe me, talk to all of the prison redshirts who never survived the Governor 2.0 attack (leaving the stars alive...convenient)...or ask Oscar about the Woodbury raid, which--in turn--send Axel to join his pal in the afterlife.

No it doesn't. The entire concept of "reconnaissance-in-force" is based on getting the intel while you attack.

..and what did they learn? Other than getting two of their most valuable members kidnapped?

But they got an advantage out of the attack. The bad guys lost a base. Only an over-cautious idiot would think there's an advantage in never attacking.

Only a violent, survivalist fool--sans any real intel--would attack one, small base without knowing if there were spotters in the surrounding area (there are), a larger force nearby, and not knowing if said larger force knew they were coming. Its no wonder Negan is going to have his way with this group for some time.

 

[Admiral2]

Of course they are--as it is not theory, but coming from the episodes.

Which are fantasies, driven by the whims of the writers and not objective reasoning, which means, as I said before, if the group suffers from this attack it's because that's what the writers want, not because of any inherent problem with the concept of preemption.

There's no action in reckless, tactically empty attacks on a force you know little about in terms of size, strength and what you do know is utterly bad. That's not action--that is walking up to the enemy and begging to be slaughtered.

But if you slash at the enemy's limbs with every word, he'll struggle that much harder to deliver the slaughter you're begging for.

Daryl was lucky. That's all. Sasha and Abraham were seconds from being killed. If gun-toting Savior did not send his man to take Daryl to the rear of the truck, they would be dead.

But he did give that order. That wasn't luck. That was incompetence on the enemy leader's part.

With Rick's group, its almost always luck, not sound strategies.

It's a combination, just like every combat action ever fought. Rick's group started out with a sound strategy in the satellite compound that was working fine until somebody brushing his teeth saw the invaders (no battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy). After that, luck allowed them to clear the rest of the facility because the remaining defenders were caught off guard.

So they have luck on their side. That's supposed to be a good thing!

Again, did they learn nothing from Terminus? Rick's group was watched even as they were sneaking around the fences. In this case, as soon as Rick's group were engaged, on that same night, Maggie and Carol were captured. Why? Because there were others watching / operating in the woods surrounding the satellite compound.

Who on earth would have not considered that?? Apparently, Rick's group did not, considering the expressions on their faces as the kidnapping was announced.

Rick did consider it. The reason Maggie and Carol were out there was because they were the ones who were supposed to be watching for outliers. They got distracted.

See the luck examples. Rick's best moment was in the bar (season 2), where it was spur of the moment. His grand plans usually leaves companions dead. If you don't believe me, talk to all of the prison redshirts who never survived the Governor 2.0 attack (leaving the stars alive...convenient)...or ask Oscar about the Woodbury raid, which--in turn--send Axel to join his pal in the afterlife.

I never said they don't lose people. I said the gains make the risk of losing people worth it for the overall well-being of the ASZ.

..and what did they learn? Other than getting two of their most valuable members kidnapped?

They learned that there were people they missed, and one is a woman. Every little bit of info helps.

Only a violent, survivalist fool--sans any real intel--would attack one, small base without knowing if there were spotters in the surrounding area (there are), a larger force nearby, and not knowing if said larger force knew they were coming. Its no wonder Negan is going to have his way with this group for some time.

You have got to get over this.

There is no such thing as perfect intel. Armed forces units throughout history have gone into battles with little intel, no intel or intel that was just flat out wrong (which is worse than no intel). And we're talking about history without a zombie apocalypse. That doesn't make the combatants involved survivalist fools. You cannot let a desperate need to know every single thing about the enemy force you into inaction or too little action.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Is it a hard blow? There's just no way any sensible person would think that little raid hurt the Saviors. ...and if that was not a poor strategy, they end up with Maggie and Carol kidnapped right out of the gates.

Even if the Saviors turned out to be a force of 200, which would be an absolutely unheard of number for this show and Rick, et al, would be crazy to ever even consider the possibility without evidence, this attack plus the ten or so Daryl killed on the road would mean they have already killed a full 15% of the saviors, as well as cost them a base and all the weapons and food that were in that base (and being carried by the group on the road).

In that extreme case, obviously, Negan still has enough people to be a huge problem. But to say that he hasn't been hurt would be completely ridiculous.

I've also been keeping tabs on this whole "Who will Negan kill?" question that won't die down no matter how many times someone tries to calm down the curious among the fan base. I think Sunday's episode may have given us our best clue. Watching Morgan stand alone in his opposition to Rick's plan, his "all life is precious" mantra fully established while the others... Glenn included... are out taking part in a risky yet kinda ballsy sneak attack on one of Negan's outposts, it seems more clear now than ever that Morgan will be the one Negan eliminates. We know that, for the death to have any impact, the victim must be someone who has been a part of the TWD universe since Episode #1. For it to have the most emotional impact, you'd think it would have to be either Glenn or Daryl (most do). Though Morgan has not been as well-loved by the fans, particularly during the current season, it makes the most thematic sense. There's also the scene where he appears to be building something... a cage more than likely, and presumably meant for Rick. That cage might come in handy later on, whether or not Morgan's still alive and is the one to put someone inside it....

I disagree that it has to be one of the originals. It just has to be one of the most important characters. Killing Maggie or Michonne would be just as terrible as killing Glen or Daryl. Making it an original does have the advantage of proving that the originals aren't safe anymore, but that's fairly negligible compared to the actual emotional impact of the character involved.

In either case, Morgan is only an original member on a technicality - he's barely appeared for most of the show's history - so the idea that his death would have anywhere near the same impact as Glen, Rick, Daryl, or Carol is fairly absurd. (Which doesn't necessarily mean that it won't happen, or that it couldn't be written in such a way as to give it more impact than the character by himself would generate)

 

[Caligula]

I disagree that it has to be one of the originals. It just has to be one of the most important characters. Killing Maggie or Michonne would be just as terrible as killing Glen or Daryl. Making it an original does have the advantage of proving that the originals aren't safe anymore, but that's fairly negligible compared to the actual emotional impact of the character involved.

What's really nice about the way this season is unfolding is all the little hints/easter eggs that keep being dropped every week. At this point, with four episodes left, there are still arguments to be made for just about every major character not part of the Grimes clan to be at risk when the finale rolls around. Killing any female character by Negan's preferred method would be horrific. No question. Especially Maggie, what with her being pregnant. You wanna mentally scar certain members of the viewing audience? That'd be one way to pull it off. The impact of, say, Glenn's death has been irreparably watered down by his numerous brushes with death. Even though it would line up with the comics, I feel like they've wet the bed on that one. Which is also why it's not out of the realm of possibility. The riskiest move would be Daryl, given the character's MASSIVE fan support, and that's exactly why it SHOULD be him. It's also why it probably won't be. I'd be impressed if it were. But my gut tells me they're going the safe route of killing Morgan.

In either case, Morgan is only an original member on a technicality - he's barely appeared for most of the show's history - so the idea that his death would have anywhere near the same impact as Glen, Rick, Daryl, or Carol is fairly absurd. (Which doesn't necessarily mean that it won't happen, or that it couldn't be written in such a way as to give it more impact than the character by himself would generate)

To be fair, I never called Morgan an "original member." All I'd said was that he's been a part of the TWD universe since Episode #1. His death would still have a significant impact on anyone who's been following the show since it first aired. Granted, nowhere close to as big of one as a member of the Atlanta Five... or even Maggie who's been with us since Episode #8... but a significant one no less.

 

[Morpheus 02]

While Morgan might not be a "loved" as the longtime core members, he is definitely a fan favorite. Clear is considered one of TWD's best episodes, and when we first saw Morgan finding traces of Rick's crew at Terminus, people cheered. And when he saved Darryl & Aaron -- epic comeback.

But for the characters, such a death wouldn't hurt as much.

I have only read one comic of the Negan era (I think 114), which only stated that Negan had a personal beef with the leader (i.e. Rick)... so could be Michonne...? Or if something goofy happens with the crew at the satellite campus, maybe even Carol?

What would be amazing if they killed Rick. Only then would NO ONE be safe...and such a thing would be worthy of several episodes to unpack.

 

[hux]

We're all gearing up for a big death in the show and know it's coming. The only death that would properly annoy me at this point would be Glen because they've dangled it in front if us twice.

Maybe they deliberately did that to throw us off the scent and he actually is the one to die but it would still be annoying because of how they "under the dumpstered" him.

I think it's more likely that they'll probably kill off two or three characters to hide the fact that it wasn't one of the big guns. I would include Maggie in that. Throw Abraham, Morgan, Eugene, Rosita, Tara in with her and it makes for a reasonably big impact.

 

[Morpheus 02]

I think definitely Abraham and Tara are goners... Abraham not willing to mix his Bisquick....and I think his break-up with Rosita was intentionally mean, so that she wouldn't mourn him when he dies. I think he just doesn't feel the hope Glenn does, and it's killing him. He also apparently feels he can't be with Sasha (according to his dream).

Tara seems telegraphed wither going on a long mission with Heath. They might get captured by Negan. It won't have the emotional impact as others...but I think at least Glenn, who "saved" her, and she turned out to be a good fit for the team. (And of course Denise's reaction)

Eugene & Rosita might last a little while, especially if they somehow get together.

Morgan, I am hoping, will simply leave or maybe get exiled. He might get confronted by Carol when his philosophy fails (i.e. gets someone killed)

 

[hux]

Eugene & Rosita might last a little while, especially if they somehow get together.

Dear God no! That would be a ship too far.

Morgan, I am hoping, will simply leave or maybe get exiled. He might get confronted by Carol when his philosophy fails (i.e. gets someone killed)

Didn't someone get exiled in the comic? And didn't Deanna mention something to Rick when he first arrived about someone being exiled (I wonder if that guy will come up again?) anyway, I'd prefer that for Morgan. Let him go a wandering again.

 

[bbjeg]

With what's been building so far I think one of three people are going to die. Either Maggie, who would have the biggest impact on most of the characters, Abraham, sacrificing himself for Sasha, or Carol, sacrificing herself for Maggie.

I hope it's not Gabriel (I kinda like him now) or Eugene (his wrong place at the wrong time abilities are fun).

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Which are fantasies, driven by the whims of the writers and not objective reasoning, which means, as I said before, if the group suffers from this attack it's because that's what the writers want, not because of any inherent problem with the concept of preemption.

...then you've just rendered the series pointless, if no objective reasoning can be applied.

But he did give that order. That wasn't luck. That was incompetence on the enemy leader's part.

It was luck that Daryl was able to kill the guy. He was unarmed, and we can safely assume the Saviors are just as experienced in fighting as Rick's group, so the only difference is luck. The way things were going, gun-toting Savior had already made up his mind to kill Sasha & Abraham, so if Daryl lost the fight--or the fight called attention of the Saviors, three of the heroes would undoubtedly be dead. That's my point (along with the Carol/Terminus reference)--the heroes never come up with a sound strategy and actually execute it--its always luck and disaster helping them.

It's a combination, just like every combat action ever fought. Rick's group started out with a sound strategy in the satellite compound that was working fine until somebody brushing his teeth saw the invaders (no battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy). After that, luck allowed them to clear the rest of the facility because the remaining defenders were caught off guard.

The part in bold says it all: if anyone can agree that battle plans will not survive contact with the enemy, then Rick's gang should have expected that (for all they knew, members could have been up, walking the halls), but judging from the outcome, they were exposed to danger several times during the attack, and did not even expect spotters who might--as part of their job--sit in strategic spots around the base.

Moreover, they did not seem to consider that the second gunfire was heard, one or more of the Saviors might have a form of communication (walkies), to alert nearby spotters, or another base. They went in a most reckless manner.

Rick did consider it. The reason Maggie and Carol were out there was because they were the ones who were supposed to be watching for outliers. They got distracted.

Then he's got some ill-prepared people on his team, since two were aruging over Maggie's life status at the most inappropriate time. If we take the ZA world as a war situation, would you get into ANY sort of debate while the rest of your unit is moments away from an attack?

I never said they don't lose people. I said the gains make the risk of losing people worth it for the overall well-being of the ASZ.[/quote]

Eventually, that loss might include those you are closest to--not ASZ redshirts. Rick can gloss over past ASZ resident deaths such as Aiden, Nicholas, that guy who tried to plot against Rick, or the married note guy, but I doubt he will think its worth it if Michonne, Glenn or Maggie are murdered along the way.

You have got to get over this.

There is no such thing as perfect intel. Armed forces units throughout history have gone into battles with little intel, no intel or intel that was just flat out wrong (which is worse than no intel). And we're talking about history without a zombie apocalypse. That doesn't make the combatants involved survivalist fools. You cannot let a desperate need to know every single thing about the enemy force you into inaction or too little action.

Similarly, you cannot allow desperation for some imagined (not guaranteed) benefit force you into reckless action without a serious thought toward the possibility of greater numbers, traps or the enemy living in a state where they're always expecting conflict of some kind.

 

[Admiral2]

...then you've just rendered the series pointless, if no objective reasoning can be applied.

Not pointless. I'm simply accepting it for what it is: a television show. And every television show is subjective in nature. Events occur at the will of the creators, period. Any attempt to apply objective reasoning to those events, by either of us, is just so much fanboyish nonsense, because no matter what we say or assert, the season will play out the way the writers want it to.

But if you wanna keep going, fine. I got time to spare...

It was luck that Daryl was able to kill the guy. He was unarmed, and we can safely assume the Saviors are just as experienced in fighting as Rick's group, so the only difference is luck. The way things were going, gun-toting Savior had already made up his mind to kill Sasha & Abraham, so if Daryl lost the fight--or the fight called attention of the Saviors, three of the heroes would undoubtedly be dead. That's my point (along with the Carol/Terminus reference)--the heroes never come up with a sound strategy and actually execute it--its always luck and disaster helping them.

But the if's you mentioned didn't happen, so the team won. Whether luck played a part is irrelevant, because luck always plays a part in combat.

The part in bold says it all: if anyone can agree that battle plans will not survive contact with the enemy, then Rick's gang should have expected that (for all they knew, members could have been up, walking the halls), but judging from the outcome, they were exposed to danger several times during the attack, and did not even expect spotters who might--as part of their job--sit in strategic spots around the base.

You're missing the point of the quote, which is that the unexpected will always happen. You cannot prepare for every contingency, no matter how hard you try, and what destroys the battle plan is the first unexpected thing you come across. If they had a crystal ball and knew without question that one of the Saviors would be brushing his teeth in the wee hours of the night and prepared for it, something else they didn't prepare for would have happened. It means to be prepared to scrap the plan entirely and come up with a new one on the fly when things break down, not "don't move until you've thought of every possible circumstance."

Moreover, they did not seem to consider that the second gunfire was heard, one or more of the Saviors might have a form of communication (walkies), to alert nearby spotters, or another base.

Which is a moot point if your gunfire kills them before they can press the transmit buttons.

They went in a most reckless manner.

No they didn't. They came up with the best plan they could under the circumstances, executed it, then improvised when it broke down. Nothing they did was reckless.

Then he's got some ill-prepared people on his team, since two were aruging over Maggie's life status at the most inappropriate time. If we take the ZA world as a war situation, would you get into ANY sort of debate while the rest of your unit is moments away from an attack?

I don't know, because I'm not a mother worrying about a future mother being on the battlefield. Maggie and Carol are only human, and humanity can creep in and skew the performance of even the most disciplined fighters. That doesn't make either of them ill-prepared. Just distracted.

Eventually, that loss might include those you are closest to--not ASZ redshirts. Rick can gloss over past ASZ resident deaths such as Aiden, Nicholas, that guy who tried to plot against Rick, or the married note guy, but I doubt he will think its worth it if Michonne, Glenn or Maggie are murdered along the way.

And for the millionth time, THAT POTENTIAL OUTCOME IS NOT LIMITED SOLELY TO THE POSSIBLE AFTERMATH OF A PREEMPTIVE ACTION!!!!!! Maggie could survive the battle and die in childbirth. Glenn could cut himself planting tomatoes and get an infection. Michonne could come down with cholera. Or, they could sit still, like you want, making all their nowhere plans for nobody, and all die if the Saviors strike first. Rick is not an idiot. I firmly believe he knows that lives close to him are at stake. he's just sure this was the right thing to do...and all the people you're fretting over agreed and went with him!

Similarly, you cannot allow desperation for some imagined (not guaranteed) benefit force you into reckless action without a serious thought toward the possibility of greater numbers, traps or the enemy living in a state where they're always expecting conflict of some kind.

You keep forgetting there was an immediate benefit, food for the ASZ. Payment in advance. That's not imagined. They got the food, they ate the food. They were obligated to keep their end of the bargain, and won a tactical victory, in spite of all your hemming and hawing.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

It means to be prepared to scrap the plan entirely and come up with a new one on the fly when things break down, not "don't move until you've thought of every possible circumstance."

They always break down with Rick's group. I've already mentioned Oscar's death in the Woodbury raid, but Daryl was taken prisoner--and nearly killed. No one is looking for the heroes to operate like the opening battle in Avengers: Age of Ultron, but it also does not mean being a traveling pack of accidents, bad planning and relying on luck.

Which is a moot point if your gunfire kills them before they can press the transmit buttons.

Glenn and Heath were nearly killed; Abraham was slashed; any one of those members could have signaled--or others, hearing the attack could have signaled. The fact the aforementioned events happened meant this was not a well-thought out plan.

I don't know, because I'm not a mother worrying about a future mother being on the battlefield. Maggie and Carol are only human, and humanity can creep in and skew the performance of even the most disciplined fighters. That doesn't make either of them ill-prepared. Just distracted.

Carol was more than distracted--she was on her soapbox in her all too recent flirtation with her non-fighter self. In the field, --moments away from an attack is the worst time to have some conversation about anything--certainly not life status.

And for the millionth time, THAT POTENTIAL OUTCOME IS NOT LIMITED SOLELY TO THE POSSIBLE AFTERMATH OF A PREEMPTIVE ACTION!!!!!! Maggie could survive the battle and die in childbirth. Glenn could cut himself planting tomatoes and get an infection. Michonne could come down with cholera. Or, they could sit still, like you want, making all their nowhere plans for nobody, and all die if the Saviors strike first.

Now you're being ridiculous. We are talking about main characters being killed as a direct consequence of violent action--not disease or random accident.

Rick is not an idiot. I firmly believe he knows that lives close to him are at stake. he's just sure this was the right thing to do...and all the people you're fretting over agreed and went with him!

Rick is an idiot in several key cases. This is the guy who...

• sat in a room with the Governor and did not kill him (he only had Martinez and Milton with him). No, he actually listened to a BS "deal," returned to the prison, and had Merle take Michonne to complete the deal. The result: chaos, as there would be no true deal--it was a set-up. As a result of his sharp decision making there, Merle and eventually Hershel ended up victims of the Governor.
  
• Next, this is the guy who threatened his entire group by attacking Pete--all due to his adulterous pursuit of Jessie. Reg died because of Rick's actions, and yes, the consequences of his actions ultimately had Carl lose one of his eyes.
  
• The same master controller who let Andrew run in the courtyard--assuming he would be killed, instead of making sure by doing the job himself. We know how disastrous that decision was for T-Dog and Lori.

For a guy allegedly so concerned with the welfare of his companions, he's made many costly decisions.

You keep forgetting there was an immediate benefit, food for the ASZ. Payment in advance. That's not imagined. They got the food, they ate the food. They were obligated to keep their end of the bargain, and won a tactical victory, in spite of all your hemming and hawing.

Short term "benefit" in exchange for a coming, torrential flood of misery.

What was the plan for food (aside from growing it) if they never ran into Jesus--and beyond using what was on the truck?

 

[hux]

Next, this is the guy who threatened his entire group by attacking Pete--all due to his adulterous pursuit of Jessie. Reg died because of Rick's actions, and yes, the consequences of his actions ultimately had Carl lose one of his eyes.

Carl lost an eye because God created the world and started a process of events that lead to the creation of the eyeball and eventually the creation of Carl.

And also because Carl lost an eye in the comic.

But mostly the first one.

 

[Admiral2]

They always break down with Rick's group.

So what? If everything went perfectly there wouldn't be a show!

I've already mentioned Oscar's death in the Woodbury raid,

You keep mentioning dead people like I don't know people died. I'm watching the same show as you.

but Daryl was taken prisoner--and nearly killed. No one is looking for the heroes to operate like the opening battle in Avengers: Age of Ultron, but it also does not mean being a traveling pack of accidents, bad planning and relying on luck.

They are not a travelling pack of accidents, they are not bad planners and they don't rely on luck. They've become experts at fighting both humans and walkers over the seasons, they are smart people, and luck is a factor in any operation whether you rely on it or not.

Glenn and Heath were nearly killed; Abraham was slashed; any one of those members could have signaled--or others, hearing the attack could have signaled. The fact the aforementioned events happened meant this was not a well-thought out plan.

It was well-thought out enough to work until tooth-brush boy spotted them, then they won anyway. Glenn didn't die, Heath didn't die, Abraham survived his wound. The casualty count is two of ours captured, twenty of theirs dead. That's a victory no matter how much you want to bitch about it.

Carol was more than distracted--she was on her soapbox in her all too recent flirtation with her non-fighter self. In the field, --moments away from an attack is the worst time to have some conversation about anything--certainly not life status.

Yes it is. That doesn't mean it won't happen anyway. We are still talking about human beings. Get over it.

Now you're being ridiculous. We are talking about main characters being killed as a direct consequence of violent action--not disease or random accident.

But you're arguing as if only ONE form of violent action will result in those deaths. That's the problem. There are any number of violent deaths those characters could suffer or have suffered between the day Rick and Daryl went after food and right now. Just attacking the Saviors won't guarantee it will happen. (And it hasn't happened. None of them are dead yet.)

Rick is an idiot in several key cases. This is the guy who...

• sat in a room with the Governor and did not kill him (he only had Martinez and Milton with him). No, he actually listened to a BS "deal," returned to the prison, and had Merle take Michonne to complete the deal. The result: chaos, as there would be no true deal--it was a set-up. As a result of his sharp decision making there, Merle and eventually Hershel ended up victims of the Governor.
  
• Next, this is the guy who threatened his entire group by attacking Pete--all due to his adulterous pursuit of Jessie. Reg died because of Rick's actions, and yes, the consequences of his actions ultimately had Carl lose one of his eyes.
  
• The same master controller who let Andrew run in the courtyard--assuming he would be killed, instead of making sure by doing the job himself. We know how disastrous that decision was for T-Dog and Lori.

For a guy allegedly so concerned with the welfare of his companions, he's made many costly decisions.

And those around him still trust his leadership. If they can manage it what's your problem?

Short term "benefit" in exchange for a coming, torrential flood of misery.

What was the plan for food (aside from growing it) if they never ran into Jesus--and beyond using what was on the truck?

Dude, Jesus is the reason they don't have the truck! The truck would have sustained them until they could get stuff to grow! Again, you're talking about what ifs as if they're arguments. They did meet Jesus, they lost the truck, they needed a food source, they made a deal, they carried out their part of it. Don't like it? Bitch to the people who write the show about it!

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

So what? If everything went perfectly there wouldn't be a show!

...and how did I cap that off? I said:

No one is looking for the heroes to operate like the opening battle in Avengers: Age of Ultron, but it also does not mean being a traveling pack of accidents, bad planning and relying on luck.

That is the point.

You keep mentioning dead people like I don't know people died. I'm watching the same show as you.[/quote]

I think you're glossing over how Rick's leadership has cost the group many valuable lives.

They are not a travelling pack of accidents, they are not bad planners and they don't rely on luck. They've become experts at fighting both humans and walkers over the seasons, they are smart people, and luck is a factor in any operation whether you rely on it or not.

Again, i point to Terminus--the fact the group survived at all was due to pure luck. No Carol & Tyreese just so happening to find and overhear Martin, and Rick's "screwin' with the wrong people" means absolutely nothing, as he would have been served with peas and carrots by sundown.

It was well-thought out enough to work until tooth-brush boy spotted them, then they won anyway. Glenn didn't die, Heath didn't die, Abraham survived his wound. The casualty count is two of ours captured, twenty of theirs dead. That's a victory no matter how much you want to bitch about it.

Glenn and Heath were nearly killed. Since Glenn is still a main character, the point stands about the ridiculous, ill-planned risks of Rick's plans. Moreover, they hardly know Jesus and the Hilltop people, yet they fully sign on as a hit squad?

Without even reading the comic, I know the Hilltop old pervert will turn the tables on Rick's group soon enough.

But you're arguing as if only ONE form of violent action will result in those deaths. That's the problem. There are any number of violent deaths those characters could suffer or have suffered between the day Rick and Daryl went after food and right now. Just attacking the Saviors won't guarantee it will happen. (And it hasn't happened. None of them are dead yet.)

I was countering your silly "death by accident/disease" post, when I'm talking about the main manner of death for characters--being killed by the living--consequences, not zombies, disease, or accidents, That said, attacking a violent group is the series-proven fastest way to start shit no one ever finishes without some sort of disaster.

And those around him still trust his leadership. If they can manage it what's your problem?

Please. Almost too many characters have questioned his leadership or plans from time to time. From Shane, Andrea, Tyreese, Hershel, Lori, Carol, Carl, Michonne, Maggie, Glenn and in this season, Morgan---which is conflict on the horizon.

Dude, Jesus is the reason they don't have the truck! The truck would have sustained them until they could get stuff to grow! Again, you're talking about what ifs as if they're arguments. They did meet Jesus, they lost the truck, they needed a food source, they made a deal, they carried out their part of it. Don't like it? Bitch to the people who write the show about it!

Completely missed the point.

Again, they are seeking short term "benefit" in exchange for a coming, torrential flood of misery.

What was the plan for food (aside from growing it) if they never ran into Jesus--and beyond using what was on the truck? I'm asking you (since we're not talking to Gimple, Kirkman, et al.) what was the plan for food if Hilltop never happened? This can only go in one direction....

 

[Admiral2]

I think you're glossing over how Rick's leadership has cost the group many valuable lives.

While you keep ignoring how many lives Rick's leadership has saved, which is a greater number. You're on a Trek board, man. What part of that "Needs of the many..." saying are you unclear on?

Again, i point to Terminus--the fact the group survived at all was due to pure luck. No Carol & Tyreese just so happening to find and overhear Martin, and Rick's "screwin' with the wrong people" means absolutely nothing, as he would have been served with peas and carrots by sundown.

And I'm still not seeing what your problem with luck is. It's like someone who keeps breaking Vegas complaining it's unfair to all the losers.

Glenn and Heath were nearly killed.

But they're not dead!

Since Glenn is still a main character, the point stands about the ridiculous, ill-planned risks of Rick's plans.

It would stand if he were dead, because your whole point is that he might have died, but he's not dead!

Moreover, they hardly know Jesus and the Hilltop people, yet they fully sign on as a hit squad?

They murdered the Termites following them for free. Why not get something back for the violence?

Without even reading the comic, I know the Hilltop old pervert will turn the tables on Rick's group soon enough.

Because it's obvious he's a pervert. You don't need the comics to guess that. (Of course, you could still be wrong...)

I was countering your silly "death by accident/disease" post, when I'm talking about the main manner of death for characters--being killed by the living--consequences, not zombies, disease, or accidents, That said, attacking a violent group is the series-proven fastest way to start shit no one ever finishes without some sort of disaster.

And the group usually survives the disaster, with maybe one less. Tragic, but not a prospect you have to curl yourself into the fetal position over.

Please. Almost too many characters have questioned his leadership or plans from time to time. From Shane, Andrea, Tyreese, Hershel, Lori, Carol, Carl, Michonne, Maggie, Glenn and in this season, Morgan---which is conflict on the horizon.

And every single person on that list - except Shane - ended up following him anyway. And Shane's problem was Jealousy, not that he gave a shit about Rick's leadership ability.

Completely missed the point.

Again, they are seeking short term "benefit"

Short term benefit is still a BENEFIT. Putting it in quotes doesn't change that fact.

in exchange for a coming, torrential flood of misery.

You don't KNOW the ultimate outcome of this adventure. You're not fucking Nostradamus.

What was the plan for food (aside from growing it) if they never ran into Jesus--and beyond using what was on the truck? I'm asking you (since we're not talking to Gimple, Kirkman, et al.) what was the plan for food if Hilltop never happened?

I don't know, because I'm not Rick any more than I'm the writers and I can't see into alternate universes, which is what you keep asking me to do whenever you ask "what if?" All I can tell you is the only reason they're involved with Hilltop is because somebody from Hilltop fucked up their last successful food run. No one will ever know what would have been done if they could keep the food and Jesus never showed up. He did and they couldn't, so events unfolded the way the did. Continual bitching about it is only going to raise your blood pressure.

This can only go in one direction....

Yes, the one the writers want. If they want to kill someone off, they will. We'll cry our tears and tune in next season.

Get. Over. It.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

While you keep ignoring how many lives Rick's leadership has saved, which is a greater number. You're on a Trek board, man. What part of that "Needs of the many..." saying are you unclear on?

No one thinks like that--in fact, they are so desperate to keep all alive (in the worst possible, error-prone way) that they are never willing to sacrifice anyone for some greater benefit.

And every single person on that list - except Shane - ended up following him anyway. And Shane's problem was Jealousy, not that he gave a shit about Rick's leadership ability.

The point you are missing is that many have questioned him throughout the seasons--this is not a case where it all happened on one occasion long ago, but it continues to be an issue, right up to Michonne having to hit Rick over the head during his adulterer attack on Pete.

Short term benefit is still a BENEFIT. Putting it in quotes doesn't change that fact.

It means it will not be worth the coming, ultimate cost.

You don't KNOW the ultimate outcome of this adventure. You're not fucking Nostradamus.

Read the quatrains, my child...it ends in misery.


"The Same Boat"--

The writers managed to paint this group as pure reprobates.

Paula the Redhead was annoying. "Guys can't handle pain."
"Do you really believe in that crap?" Whatever.

Fat old woman: "Oh. You're one of those." What an asshole.

Carol: revealing the motorcycle gang attack--what is her angle?

The lesson here--don't mess with a mother--or threaten a friend who happens to be a mother to be. Joking aside, Carol's attempt to turn to peace was completely dashed to pieces in this episode, so I wonder if she will now follow her comic counterpart's fate?

Note Carol saying "no" to Daryl's "are you alright?" Sounds ominous, and her reaction to Rick's execution...squeezing the beads to the point of making her hands bleed.....

Revenge--Negan's revenge will be big.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Not so sure about Rick's action in the end and not just from a moral standpoint. A prisoner might allow for some kind of intel or trade in the future. Then again, after Jesus they might not feel confident in being able to hold anyone.

Carol seems to be wrestling with humanity worming its way into her armor. I wonder if maybe she and Morgan will have a talk in their future.

And do they keep Paul Feig on speed dial for the women-centric episodes of TWD?

ooh, that Walking Dead park attraction looks fun!