The Top Major Screw ups & Mistakes Of The Dominon War?

[Aquehonga]

^ I forget the Crystalline Entity bought the farm

True, it wasn't a mistake Odo not coming home with Weyoun 6.

More of a disappointment, or letdown of sorts, to we aficionados that is!

At least me aficionado anyway!

True about Tin Man & the Douwd.

Unless somehow the Douwd was made aware of the crumby war, & could see Cardassia's fate/future with his powers & abilities.

Then maybe Kevin would intervene to save 800+ billion Cardies from genocide. This could possibly have been Kevin's way of making up as best he could for his genocide of the Husnock civilization, had he been approached re: the war.

Kevin may have thought, being he can't bring the Husnock back from extinction, he can prevent the Cardassian's.

Armus? As luck would have it, Armus'd probably steal a ship, go through the wormhole {evading pesky mines, if there, somehow}, & then plop himself right into the Great Link

Re: use of cloaked mines, I did note that that'd be a difficult task.

Re: The Doomsday Machine's Reboot>
I stressed intelligently resurrected

I'm imagining Starfleet having the Planet Zapper under control & it's fatal flaw(s) patched up

Then Sf could use the DM as the Biggest RAID Can Ever vs the lethal swarms of Jem'Hadar & Cardie ships

Re: Dukat & the Founders>
I was always under the impression Dukat approached the Dough Boys first by going to the γQ in his cloaked Bird-of-Prey.

While there, Dukat was met by Weyoun (or maybe Borath) & offered the post of Absolute Ruler of the Cardassian Union, & inevitably the Alpha Quadrant, to which Dukat, unlike Sisko, willingly went head over heels for hook, line & sinker like a kid in a candy store.

I'm out of fuel now

 

[Nightdiamond]

So far the view is that either cloaking technology is incompatible with jem hadar ships, the jem hadar don't believe in them or don't need them.

The incompatibility arguement seems to be the best one, for example, considering that jem hadar ships have those virtual viewers for the vorta and the first, and they are the only ones who can actually see anything "outside", a cloak could possibly distort how they work, making it incompatible with their ships.

But still, the jem hadar themselves have a personal cloaking device that they DO use. No denying it.

In quite a few episodes they have been shown waiting while personally cloaked, then suddenly appearing and taking their enemies by surprise. If they have no problem using personal cloaking in close combat, then why not on their ships?

The debate on this one isn't over, I'm sure.



Here's another major mistake on Starfleet's part - lack of battle readiness.


2. Starfleet's and the Federation's failure to strongly arm itself

Betazed was invaded during the beginning of the second part of the war. When Starfleet assessed the situation, they found that Betazed's planetary defense systems were 'obsolete and undermanned".

As a result, after only ten hours of fighting, Betazed quickly fell and became occupied. It would take nummerous attempts by starfleet to retake Betazed, all of which reportedly had failed.

The Federation has often been criticized as being either too soft or too naive. With numerous enemies around, the feeling has often been expressed that Starfleet should devote less of its time exploring and more of it's time to arming itself heavily .

The Essentialist movement Worf encountered. Admiral Leyton. The Klingons. Even a few murmers from Sisko's own crew from time to time demonstrates this.

That misshap made Betazed look as if it were ignoring the war around it and neglected to upgrade its own defense systems.

Other sources state that potential member worlds criticized Starfleet for paying too much attention to exploring during this time and not enough to protection of Federation planets.

A full scale war with the Dominion, and your planet has obsolete defense systems? What was Betazed and Starfleet thinking?

 

[Photon]

Bajor & DS9 should have had defensive platforms (like Earth had I'm sure and like chin'toka had).

Also the other side of the WH should have been mined exclusively for Dominion ships. The Doms coulda made it through but at great cost.

BTW, where DID SF get the tech for their cloaked mines (Pegasus project?, copied Rom tech?) Was the mine tech an breaking of the horrible treaty of Algernon?

 

[black_dranzer]

BTW, where DID SF get the tech for their cloaked mines (Pegasus project?, copied Rom tech?) Was the mine tech an breaking of the horrible treaty of Algernon?

In "Sons Of Mogh", the Klingons try to mine the Bajoran system with cloaked mines - since by "A Call To Arms" the Feds and the Klingons are allies again, I presume the cloaked mines are a hybrid of Federation and Klingon technology.


Also, I think a major screw-up of the Dominion War is the person who designed the targeting scanners on the Bird-of-Prey that decided to shoot it's own ally when there were more than 1,000 Dominion ships to pick from

 

[Lashmore]

Ok

Final Eps of war

Federation and allies mee the dommie/cardie/breenie fleet in an all out assault. neither side had a tactical brain. Weyoun (spelling) was cocnerned over their liens beign spread too thin. the allied fleet took 'advantage' (more like a msitake to do so) and strike the middle lines in a 3-dimensional battlefield. Ooooooo-k?

The flaw here. From the onscreen action the fleets in this 'center' bit got pretty locked up, they couldn;t figth through but got all itnermingled together fighting randomly. Anywhom, what this does is in any real tactically minded terms gives the Dominion victory within five minutes long before cardassians rebel openly. Thier highly numbered and strengthened sides move in and surround the allied fleet, ripping it to peices within mere minutes.

Charge everything at the middle in a 3 dimensional battlefield only to possibly be surrounded by sueprior numbers by all sides closing in like doors? Smart one Sisko....*sarcasm*

but due to creative writing, the dominion who have been fighting wars for centuries...obviously had no clue of the advantage they had with said actions and didn't take the advantage handed freely to them by the federation fleet.

Bad leadership, both sides. Would kick their butts at chess I'm guessing.

 

[kv1at3485]

As I said: the battles are likely subjects for black humoured comedies.

First Battle of Chin'toka:.

"Hey, these weapon platforms aren't dying. x number of our ships are being mangled for every one we manage to spit at. This is a fair trade. We don't need to regroup and reflect, and do some scans from a safe distance. Let's keep hitting our heads against the wall! I always wanted that posthumous medal for heroism."

And they wonder why they always seem up in arms about their casualties and ship losses.

Operation Return:

"We have all these missiles at our disposal but let's not use them. Instead, let's send in expendable piloted miss... I mean, fighters. And now that the enemy is "opening up" (for whatever reason) let's go barrelling down the middle (because I feel like being surrounded). And again, let's forgo the use of missiles. Any commander who uses missiles will be sacked."

AR-558:

Where's the orbital fire support? Worf had the perfect opportunity to fire a bunch of fire and forget missiles to at least kill some of the enemy troops before having to leave himself. Sisko, or the pressed ground grunts, didn't even think about it.

And why did the Jem'hadar take so long making contact? At any time the enemy may be reinforced. Speed is of the essence.

And why are those troops so ill-equipped?

Bottom line:
The incompetence in the Star Trek universe permeates every level in every series. The above aren't even the tip of the iceburg. The scary part is a technically inferior science fiction civilization would give the Star Trek tech fantasy civilization a run for its money (socially, culturally, economically, politically, etc.) simply by using what it has in a saner manner.

That would actually be something worth exploring in the books.

 

[Marie1]

SF definitely needs some destroyers... a few fleets of battleships. I know they like to explore, but they must know by now that they're meeting up far too often with homicidal races with superiority and/or domination complexes. Its getting to be a bit much.

The alternative is producing about a million Defiant-class ships or something...

 

[Aquehonga]

The alternative is producing about a million Defiant-class ships or something...

That's where my bright idea to reboot The Doomsday Machine comes in

If the UFP intelligently reactivated that behemoth so it was under Starfleet control, you'd have the equivalent of a gazillion Defiants

Its a given the Front Entrance Flaw would have to be fixed so no Dough Boy or ships can jam it up & shut it off

TDM would be the UFP's Ultimate Weapon, the King of All Fly-swatters & Bug Sprays.

The Dominion are the worst nastiest, pesty swarms of bugs. Locusts Sisko called'em Exactly right

The Doomsday Machine is the Biggest RAID Can Ever.

You'd see whole armadas of 1,000's of Jem'Hadar & ships instantly vaporized
I guess TDM would be Starfleets “Death Star”

 

[Nightdiamond]

Marie1
The alternative is producing about a million Defiant-class ships or something...

A good point, because remember the defiant fleet Starfleet was supposed to have built after the Borg threat? The Defiant was supposed to be one of an entire fleet designed to fight the Borg.

It seemed to be a good idea, considering the Federation only barely escaped the Borg threat, but soon after it passed, they decided to pass up on the project because.... the Defiant had a few technical flaws, and the borg threat became "less urgent". (They were attacked again by the Borg)

This seems to be an example of the above argument- that starfleet consistently has lacked battle readiness, or sometimes even the motivation to be battle ready. A major FUBAR on the Federation's part.

If they did succeed in building that fleet, how much of an advantage could they had had during the war?

AR-558:

Where's the orbital fire support? Worf had the perfect opportunity to fire a bunch of fire and forget missiles to at least kill some of the enemy troops before having to leave himself. Sisko, or the pressed ground grunts, didn't even think about it.

And why did the Jem'hadar take so long making contact? At any time the enemy may be reinforced. Speed is of the essence.

I have some major FUBARS and mistakes made by both sides during that siege that I'll post later, but you made some good arguments for this one.

Lashmore:
....but due to creative writing, the dominion who have been fighting wars for centuries...obviously had no clue of the advantage they had with said actions and didn't take the advantage handed freely to them by the federation fleet

This seems to be where the idea about breeding a new strain of Jem Hadar might come in. Their style of combat may have been specificly designed for combat in the gamma quadrant where those inhabitants followed a certain strategy of fighting.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I agree about the Federation's stance towards battle readiness...and that's something I've been trying to write into my own fanfic.

The uniforms seen on AR-558, for instance? Irresponsible! How about some armor? Or at least something that will deflect shrapnel? You may not be able to deflect a full-on phaser hit, but that's not the only thing that kills.

And what other policies might Starfleet have that are contrary to what their soldiers REALLY should have, to survive?

That's something you'll see--a contrast between Starfleet and the Cardassian Guard, in my story (i.e. the latter actually knows what being BATTLE-READY means).

 

[Nightdiamond]

I agree about the Federation's stance towards battle readiness...and that's something I've been trying to write into my own fanfic.

The uniforms seen on AR-558, for instance? Irresponsible! How about some armor? Or at least something that will deflect shrapnel? You may not be able to deflect a full-on phaser hit, but that's not the only thing that kills.

And what other policies might Starfleet have that are contrary to what their soldiers REALLY should have, to survive?

That's something you'll see--a contrast between Starfleet and the Cardassian Guard, in my story (i.e. the latter actually knows what being BATTLE-READY means).

There are so many mistakes to pick apart in that situation. It seems that Quark may have been somewhat right. The humans of that century were so spoiled by their prosperity and lack of need that the war and its requirements took a toll on them.

By comaparison, how battle ready and how able to cope are 20 and 21st century soldiers are?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Better than their hypothetical 24th-century counterparts, that's for sure.

 

[StarMan]

The Federation should have invaded Cardassia and blockaded the wormhole with a massive taskforce the moment the Dominion/Cardassian alliance kicked off. The fact they allowed multiple shipments and fleets through the wormhole to build up an empire that was obviously on a hostile foothold was ridiculous. Nothing highlights it more than when Sisko and co are *waiting* for the next Dominion convoy in "A Call To Arms".

WTF?

 

[Marie1]

"Curing" the Jem'hadar of the need for white would be a bad idea- first they'd need food etc., and since they're not exactly agricultural, and they're big and mean, they may start pillaging it. Also, since they're aggressive, *if* (mostly the younger ones) want to attack people wily nily, then they need to be controlled until they can be given some etiquette lessons. Also, Bashir may have ended up unleashing the Jem'hadar...

I agree with Bashir finding a cure, not just for Odo, but for the Founders. Fighting for "what the Federation believes in" would dishonnour the memories of the dead if the Federation commited genocide.

I agree with the above poster- the foothold just... ugh. They should've mined it as soon as they figured out what Dukat had done. I mean, the convoys were a week apart!

 

[2 of 10]

When Sisko retakes the station in "Sacrifice of Angels" I think he makes a major mistake when to decides to enter the worm hole after Damar takes the mine field down. He goes on a suicide mission, with no chance to stop the Dominion, if it was not for the Prophets saving him and the Defient, it would have been probably the biggest mistake made in the war. Losing Benjamine would have been a major blow to the Federation, also losing the Defient and her crew would have also been a serious loss to the Federation. All to mabey destroy a couple of Dominion ships before being destroyed yourself.

Not the mention the effect it would have had on Bajorian people, losing the Emissary would have had a major effect on Bajor also. All in all, Benjamine really blew it on this one decision, thankfully the prophets saved the day for the Federation and the entire AQ also...

 

[Nightdiamond]

When Sisko retakes the station in "Sacrifice of Angels" I think he makes a major mistake when to decides to enter the worm hole after Damar takes the mine field down. He goes on a suicide mission, with no chance to stop the Dominion, if it was not for the Prophets saving him and the Defient, it would have been probably the biggest mistake made in the war.

Losing Benjamine would have been a major blow to the Federation, also losing the Defient and her crew would have also been a serious loss to the Federation. All to mabey destroy a couple of Dominion ships before being destroyed yourself.

Now that you think about it, that makes sense. When the episode first aired, it seemed like Sisko made the only choice he could - try to take out as many ships as possible before they come in the alpha quadrant.

Then again, who's to say that those ships coming through the wormhole would mean the absolute instantaneous loss of the war? Even when the Breen joined the war with their extra ships, the war was still fought to a standstill.

If the Prophets didn't interfere, the Defiant would have been eventually destroyed and no warning would have been sent to the rest of the fleet still fighting. At least an advanced warning would have been of tremendous help in helping starfleet and the klingons to ready their forces.

And the Bajorans would have either reacted emotionally and took that as a sign or fought the Dominion, treaty or no treaty.

If Sisko sent a priorty alert to Starfleet and the klingons about the mines going down, they would have enough advanced warning to do something. If the Borg experience taught Starfeelt anything, that should have been not to give up.

And Sisko could have remained with them to help strategize and fight in the war effort. Good one and good point.

 

[Jono]

Then again, who's to say that those ships coming through the wormhole would mean the absolute instantaneous loss of the war?

Everyone did. They mentioned it every 5 minutes in Favor the Bold and Sacrifice of Angels. One thing was made very clear, that the Federation and Klingons would not be able to win the war once supply lines between Cardassia and Dominion space in the Gamma Quadrant were secured. It wouldn't be over in days given the supposed size of the Federation and the Dominion's limitation to standard warp speeds, but it was made clear that the Dominion would win.

Even when the Breen joined the war with their extra ships, the war was still fought to a standstill.

Maybe the GQ Dominion had a lot more ships and soldiers then the Breen could add.

It is odd that the war was at a standstill after the Breen joined (before it from when the Romulan's joined it was all Federation Alliance basically, apart from the crazy wormhole influenced stalemate, which makes no sense what-so-ever), the Klingons were apparently holding the line on their own and vastly outnumbered but we don't really hear of much in the way of Dominion advances at the time. The Breen's entry smacks of desperation by the Founder and the Dominion. They are losing and they do everything they can to get in someone else to get their hands on a magic weapon for one last roll of the dice.

If the Prophets didn't interfere, the Defiant would have been eventually destroyed and no warning would have been sent to the rest of the fleet still fighting. At least an advanced warning would have been of tremendous help in helping starfleet and the klingons to ready their forces.

They already knew the Dominion ships were coming. Once the counter hit zero and the Defiant still had to report that they succeeded the Feds and Klingons would have known that they were in trouble. At that point the best thing to do would be either to forfiet the battle and retreat or try and destroy as many of the Dominion ships they were engaging as possible, given that they had the advantage of outflanking the Dominion fleet and its lines crumbling I'd guess they would go for maximum damage to the forces they are engaged with, they had at least 3 hours before significant Dominion reinforcements could join that battle anyway.

Does anyone remember what came first, the 200 ships breaking through or the Defiant leaving the wormhole and firing on DS9? If it was the later I wonder if the breakout was spurred by the Defiant contacting the fleet and telling them of the new situation.

 

[Myasishchev]

^I don't know if the Dominion would have won. The Founders were dying of a disease only the Federation could cure. The Federation wins by default, despite their military losses.

This is why I think they missed some opportunities not to have the military situation deteriorate far more than it ever did, perhaps an occupation of Earth and so forth.

 

[data65]

The biggest mistake of all is that the federation should have had half of the fleet standing by at the wormhole and just blasted everything coming thru. Or they should have mounted a bunch of Quantum torpedo "gattling guns" just sitting there waiting. They had plenty of warning. It's called a bottleneck. Just ask those 300 Spartans!

 

[Marie1]

I agree about the Federation's stance towards battle readiness...and that's something I've been trying to write into my own fanfic.

The uniforms seen on AR-558, for instance? Irresponsible! How about some armor? Or at least something that will deflect shrapnel? You may not be able to deflect a full-on phaser hit, but that's not the only thing that kills.

And what other policies might Starfleet have that are contrary to what their soldiers REALLY should have, to survive?

That's something you'll see--a contrast between Starfleet and the Cardassian Guard, in my story (i.e. the latter actually knows what being BATTLE-READY means).

Pfft, armor. Whatdya want armor for? It only takes 26 years to grow a new crewman. Why on earth would you put them in armor?

Also, I really wish Weyoun 6 had made it- I think Odo could have solved that better, but maybe that end would be too neat...