The Top Major Screw ups & Mistakes Of The Dominon War?

[Nightdiamond]

DAMAR:This is outrageous! Have you read this treaty?

WEYOUN:Parts of it.

DAMAR :There's a reference to "territorial concessions" that Cardassia will make to the Breen.But it doesn't say what those concessions are.

WEYOUN:Oh, you needn't worry about that. ......

DAMAR:You expect me to agree to territorial concessions when I don't even know what they are?

WEYOUN amar, you're missing the point. We need the Breen to win this
war. When it's over, there will be more than enough territories available to compensate Cardassia for the loss of a few minor planets.

DAMAR :There are no "minor" planets in the Cardassian Union --

DAMAR :I don't trust him or his people. The Founders should never have
agreed to give away Cardassian territory without my consent!

WEYOUN :I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood you. It sounded as if you were implying that Cardassian territory did not belong to the Founders. Surely
that's not what you meant.

(There's a moment of complete silence on the Bridge. Everyone is staring at Damar, who knows he can give only one response.)

DAMAR:No. Of course not.

Major Dominion mistake - The Founder and Weyoun just didn't understand the Cardassians or what makes them angry. They repeatedly aggravated Damar by belittling him and taking away Cardassian power until Damar really had no reason to continue supporting them.

Giving away Cardassian territory to anyone was going to piss Damar and the Cardassians off. Doing it without consulting with them guaranteed it.

Even then, Damar was still willing go with this alliance.

WEYOUN: Is there something else?

DAMAR: The Klingons have attacked Septimus Three.

WEYOUN : I'm aware of that.

DAMAR : Are you also aware that they've landed fifteen divisions? The Cardassian troops will not survive without reinforcements.

WEYOUN :I assure you that the Septimus Three situation will be dealt with. We won't allow your brave soldiers to perish in vain. You have my word.

At this point, Weyoun is beginning to see the Cardassians as expendable in favor of the Breen. He hardly even pretends to be concerned for Cardassian soldiers, unlike earlier in the war:

DAMAR
Septimus Three has fallen!

DAMAR :Septimus Three -- an entire Cardassian Order has been wiped
out! Five hundred thousand men!

WEYOUN:Oh, yes. A great tragedy.

DAMAR: You promised reinforcements!

WEYOUN :I promised no such thing. I said the situation would be dealt with and it was.

DAMAR :By leaving them to be slaughtered by the Klingons?

WEYOUN :If you will calm down and listen, I'll explain.
The sacrifice made by the Eleventh Order was not in vain. They forced the Klingons to commit valuable troops and resources to capture a
strategically worthless planet.

Thot Gor issues a burst of STATIC.

WEYOUN :I'm glad you agree.

DAMAR :Well, I don't! You condemned a half million loyal Cardassians --

WEYOUN:If they were truly loyal, then they died willingly for the
Dominion. There can be no greater sacrifice.

DAMAR:And how many more of these sacrifices will my people be asked to make?

First, how does losing 500,000 soldiers help the Dominion? Those 500,000 soldiers could have been useful anywhere else, rather than be allowed to be exterminated.

Any other power would considered those soldier's lives valuble, but the Dominion's attitude of throwing away not only seems like an immoral, but logistical mistake.

And of course, there's Damar and the other military. They definetly would have taken great offense at losing an entire order of fellow soldiers, and the Dominion - Weyoun, and the Founder should easily seen this.

It pushed Damar over the edge...

If they had the foresight not to do those things, the war might have turned out very differently.

Make plans to do exactly as the Founder has instructed or you can schedule an execution for yourself as well.

With this, Damar finally realized he was only a puppet, to the point where he was told to submit his military suggestions to the Breen, and let the Breen report to the Founder.

In other words, Damar reports to the Breen. We can't blame Damar much- anyone would lose it at this point. Dukat had manged to hold Weyoun off, and had something of an equal footing with him.

Damar traded barbs with Weyoun more, but received more threats against himself as well. What better way to strengthen an alliance than by threatening its leader?


Big mistake on the Dominion's part...

 

[Zeppster]

The Dominion got dumber as the final 2 seasons went on. The Federation was stupid after the Wormhole was first discovered.

This isn't necessarily the Dominion War but it could have prevented it. Something like a wormhole to the other side of the galaxy would make that station so wide open to attack and they never really sent more that what one ship to defend it most of the time? By season 2 DS9 should have had a small fleet around it.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Yes, even after the Dominion threat was revealed, most of the time, the fleet was away from the station. They had to rush over there on at least four seperate occassions:

When the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar attempted to attack the Dominion;
When the Jem Hadar attacked the station;
When the Klingons attacked it;
When the Dominion finally came through the wormhole.

On top of that, they had the strange habit of sending only single runabouts into the Gamma Quandrant knowing full well they could run into the Jem Hadar. Or maybe they didn't know, which was half the problem.

The Dominion practically gave victory away in the later stages of the war, so many opportunities for them to have won, especially with the Breen as their ally.

 

[Zeppster]

Yes, even after the Dominion threat was revealed, most of the time, the fleet was away from the station. They had to rush over there on at least four seperate occassions:

When the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar attempted to attack the Dominion;
When the Jem Hadar attacked the station;
When the Klingons attacked it;
When the Dominion finally came through the wormhole.

On top of that, they had the strange habit of sending only single runabouts into the Gamma Quandrant knowing full well they could run into the Jem Hadar. Or maybe they didn't know, which was half the problem.

The Dominion practically gave victory away in the later stages of the war, so many opportunities for them to have won, especially with the Breen as their ally.

Why not make about 4 ships similar to the Defiant and keep them at DS9 or in Bajoran space at all times. Especially shortly after the Dominion were discovered.

 

[Jono]

^ Deep Space 9 isn't the only location in the Federation that needs ships. The Dominion also ran a good campaign to make their entry into the alpha quadrant as easy as possible. They kept away from the wormhole for the most part and they gave the Federation more pressing issues such as a war with the Klingons. You would also think any invasion of the alpha quadrant by the Dominion would also be opposed by the Cardassians given the proximity of their homeworld to the wormhole so what do they do? They pull some strings and shatter the Cardassian Union and get a helpful byproduct with the Cardassians "betraying" the rest of the quadrant.

The biggest screw up of the war was the opening battle where Dukat doesn't make stopping the minefield coming online his main priority...or was it? I think it might be in this thread that someone suggested that Dukat let the minefield go up on purpose so that the Dominion couldn't get its reinforcements and that the Cardassian Union would continue to be a crucial member and have a major imput into the war.

 

[Nightdiamond]

^ The biggest screw up of the war was the opening battle where Dukat doesn't make stopping the minefield coming online his main priority...or was it? I think it might be in this thread that someone suggested that Dukat let the minefield go up on purpose so that the Dominion couldn't get its reinforcements and that the Cardassian Union would continue to be a crucial member and have a major imput into the war.

That is a big screw up. In that episode, I only saw about half a dozen ships head towards the Defiant. There was only Martok's ship to defend it. Not only that, but the Defiant couldn't raise shields while deploying them.

So why couldn't Dukat's ships stop it? It should have been relatively easy. I think it is in Dukat's character to do something like that. If those ships came too soon, Cardassia's influence would have been less important, and they would risk becoming another "vassal" state instead of the 'unchallenged' leaders of the alpha quandrant..

 

[Zeppster]

^ Deep Space 9 isn't the only location in the Federation that needs ships. The Dominion also ran a good campaign to make their entry into the alpha quadrant as easy as possible. They kept away from the wormhole for the most part and they gave the Federation more pressing issues such as a war with the Klingons. You would also think any invasion of the alpha quadrant by the Dominion would also be opposed by the Cardassians given the proximity of their homeworld to the wormhole so what do they do? They pull some strings and shatter the Cardassian Union and get a helpful byproduct with the Cardassians "betraying" the rest of the quadrant.

The Cardassians were severely weakened by the Klingon war. There was no way they were in a state to defend themselves or anyone in the Alpha Quadrant against the Dominion after that. I'm not talking about a huge force I'm talking about 3 or 4 ships maybe 5 at DS9 or in that area at all times. You can't just wait for the Dominion to do something after getting all this information that they are a conquerer species in the Gamma Quadrant.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Yes, what happened to the fleet of Defiant type ships that were supposed to be built after the Borg attack?

Now, when rescuing Odo and Garak in the Gamma Quadrant, we saw the Defiant go through at least a dozen Jem Hadar ships, taking head-on blasts at point blank range, and yet it destroyed or disabled virtually all of them.

Having about 10 of them them stationed at DS9, along with DS9 itself would have made a world of difference.

Especially when we consider that for a good while, Federation ships didn't have good shield protection against Dominion weapons - if the Dominion had invaded during that time span, what could the Feds have done to stop them.

That was something of a creepy time for DS9, if you ask me. During that part of the season, there always seemed to be a foreboding feeling about the Dominion and the danger they represented.

I actually thought the episode where Cassidy was revealed to be helping the Marquis- I thought they were going to reveal she was a changeling or something..

 

[Jono]

The Cardassians were severely weakened by the Klingon war. There was no way they were in a state to defend themselves or anyone in the Alpha Quadrant against the Dominion after that.

Which is exactly my point. They proximity to the wormhole means any invasion would be an extreme risk to the Cardassian Union, their homeworld is a day or two from the wormhole and would be likely the first to fall in an invasion, so you'd expect them to respond the strongest to any threat, that makes their military a high priority target to weaken or neutralise before launching a serious invasion.

I'm not talking about a huge force I'm talking about 3 or 4 ships maybe 5 at DS9 or in that area at all times. You can't just wait for the Dominion to do something after getting all this information that they are a conquerer species in the Gamma Quadrant.

There are that many ships at DS9 if not more close to the wormhole, you have the Defiant and three to four runabouts, and maybe a dozen Bajoran starships around the place (they did manage to get 15 ships together to blockade the moon the Romulans were using pretty quickly so they have a reasonable presence in the general area).

Yes, what happened to the fleet of Defiant type ships that were supposed to be built after the Borg attack?

The Defiant never made it past the prototype stage. She seems to in fact have been a failure until Sisko pulled it out in 2371 and Miracle...I mean, Miles O'Brien fixed its problems enough to make it worthwhile.

Sisko had to dig it out of mothballs to get it assigned to DS9 where O'Brien had to work on fixing her up. O'Brien then seems to have not told Starfleet about his fixes as the USS Valiant shared a design problem that kept it to low warp speeds with the Defiant but no one knew how to fix until Nog visited.

The earliest date we have for when another Defiant class is launched is a few months before the Dominion War given the USS Valiant an

 

[Fish1941]

If the Dominion and Cardassia did not bother to occupy Bajor, due to the latter rejecting the offer to join the Federation, why did they occupy Deep Space Nine? Especially since it was a Bajoran station? Perhaps we would have been spared of that badly written arc in early S6.

 

[Jono]

^ They didn't invade Bajor because Bajor signed a non-aggression pact with the Dominion.

The Dominion came to stop Starfleet from mining the mouth of the Bajoran wormhole and given Starfleet had not left the station, despite the Bajoran requests they do so the Dominion helped them pack up and move on. The station does have some tactical and strategic worth worth having in the system. I'm sure the Cardassian's enjoyed the fact that they were pretty much in control of the Bajor system and once again ruling from the station.

Oh, and they did not occupy Deep Space 9, they reclaimed Terok Nor...

 

[Nightdiamond]

I don't know, one other reason Sisko gave was that the Borg threat had becaome less urgent.

So it was if it were now ok, not to bother with building defenses against them, since the first one was defeated.

If Obrien could solve those problems, then surely the engineers at the shipyards could have worked a bit more to solve them.

Once those problems were solved, they still could have created a Defiant style fleet as originally planned, to defend against the Dominion, which was a threat just like the Borg.

If one Defiant class ship can go through about 6 Jem Hadar ships at point blank range, wow, what can an entire fleet do?

 

[Nightdiamond]

AR-558, Lack of Defensive Gear, Lack of Practical Weapons for Ground Combat.

I know our orders, Captain. But maybe Starfleet Command isn't
aware of our situation -- we've been holding this place for five months.

That's five months of fighting off repeated Jem'Hadar attempts to take it back. When we landed here, there was a hundred and fifty of us... we're
down to forty-three.

The seige of Ar-558 is where we get see Federation ground combat up front. We also get to see the impact it has on its officers and ground forces.

Starfleet has to defend the planet along with a communications array from the Dominion. but despite the advanced technology, it has taken toll on their numbers.

At first sight, 24th century combat seems somewhat odd and impractical. Using beam weapons that fire a single beam at fast, moving targets seems impractical.

Not using conventional artillary, armor, traps and tactics seems like a major mistake, that could have saved many, many lives.


Starfleet; Automatic Rifles, Rocket launcers, grenades- not electronic, so they can't be jammed, or inhibited.

A rocket launcher possibly could have taken out a large number of the Jem Hadar troops that had landed, before they even attacked. A spread from automatic rifles or machine guns could have literally mowed down the attacking Jem Hadar, or broken up their charge.

Armor, pads, helmets, vests- wouldn't have to worry about getting stabbed (a few characters were stabbed in Ar-558) Sisko got knocked unconcious.

For the Dominion; A question comes up yet again about the Jem Hadar's shrouding ability. Isn't it strange when the Jem Hadar make their charge into the cave, they come unshrouded?

It seems to have made more sense to come in cloaked first, then open fire rapidly as soon as they unshroud. Or just personally attacked the enemy from being shrouded, up close.

Of course it would have been a short episode and series, but you can't help but to point it out.

Still, Ar-558 is a nice episode, the music matches the mood. We get see a different side of combat that leaves a lasting impression, especially since the crew leaves Ar 558, leaving the soldiers to carry on.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think that a large part of this is due to the fact that Starfleet apparently fancies itself a humanitarian/peacekeeping force, by the 24th century especially. I don't think they know how to think like a true military anymore.

They wouldn't know real combat if it hit them in the face. Are they unprepared? Big time. But it fits who they are, sadly.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I think that a large part of this is due to the fact that Starfleet apparently fancies itself a manitarian/peacekeeping force, by the 24th century especially. I don't think they know how to think like a true military anymore.

They wouldn't know real combat if it hit them in the face. Are they unprepared? Big time. But it fits who they are, sadly.

At one point, I admired how Starfleet had it's economy and fleet intact when the war started. The Cardassians, Klingons, and to some extent, the Romulans, had either their economies damaged, or fleets hurt at this point.

By pursuing peace, being diplomatic, avoiding war, the Federation enjoyed a prosperous society, a functioning fleet, and a huge wealth of scientific knowledge, which, in the end, saved everyone.

But wow, the things I've seen concerning their view of war and defense!

BASHIR: " ....That's why the Dominion wants the Kabrel System -- so they can manufacture the drug here in the Alpha Quadrant."

"According to our calculations, they'd be able to make enough White to supply the Jem'Hadar indefinitely."


BASHIR: "...Actually, sir -- we should let them have Kabrel.


SISKO: And why's that?

BASHIR: If we don't, the Dominion will have no choice but to launch a full-scale attack before its stockpile of White runs out.

Here are the casualty projections. As you can see, an attack would be devastating for both sides.

Ok, at this point, the Dominion experienced a serious shortage of white.

This is what Starfleet wanted in the first place, and it made sense; without the white the Jem Hadar can't function, and they made up, a huge bulk of their military.

It was Starfleet that destroyed their first white production facility.

Bashir wants to give it to them? Because they would launch a huge scale attack? And concerned about casualties on the Dominion's side (soldiers, Jem Hadar)?

So, what would be the consensus, pretend to the Dominion they're not aware of it, and secretly build up a large force to defend the planet, or even give them the planet, but do something to the organic components for the white to make it useless?

I never knew if they gave the Dominion the system, but I always thought it would had been wise to either keep it, or sabotage the white producing components and then let them have it.

In the "Undiscovered Country", as peace with the Klingons is discussed, a high ranking officer asks about 'mothballing Starfleet', if they made peace. Spock says as long as scientific and exploration missions would be intact, why not.

This one got a lot of discussions because obviously there were still the Romulans and other dangerous threats Starfleet encountered.


Now here's another more interesting example of starfleet thinking ;

JELLICO: Starfleet now believes the Cardassians are preparing to invade Minos Korva.

"...I'm convinced that their invasion fleet is hiding in the McAllister Nebula. I intend to hit them before they leave it.

GEORDI: What if you're wrong, Captain? What if the Cardassians are in
that nebula for scientific research?

JELLICO: You'd have to have pretty good evidence to convince me of that.

BEVERLY: You're still gambling with hundreds of lives.

TROI: But there are two million colonists on Minos Korva. If we wait until the Cardassians attack... tens of thousands of innocent people could be killed.

In this one, Starfleet itself believes the Cardassians are invading.

Jerico is proabably the perfect example of an offensive style captain, while Geordi automatically assumes they must be there for scientific research - therefore, wait until the fleet comes out in force, see if they open fire first, then react.

Beverly is worried about risking lives, in a tense military situation.

And of all people, it is Counselor Troi who cautions against waiting.

Now the main thing is, the Cardasians did have a fleet assembled there, and were using Picard as a playing card on whether to declare war, or invade the system.

I actually understand and appreciate how Federation created prosperity for its citizens by being diplomatic, forgiving, and avoiding war. The other powers didn't, and by the time war ended, they were very bad off.

But does anyone else get the sense the Federation was naive in some places?

 

[Jono]

At one point, I admired how Starfleet had it's economy and fleet intact when the war started. The Cardassians, Klingons, and to some extent, the Romulans, had either their economies damaged, or fleets hurt at this point.

The Feds were in the same boat, Sisko said just that when the Dominion first invaded that the fleet was struggling thanks to the Borg incursion and the war with the Klingons.

 

[Nightdiamond]

At one point, I admired how Starfleet had it's economy and fleet intact when the war started. The Cardassians, Klingons, and to some extent, the Romulans, had either their economies damaged, or fleets hurt at this point.

The Feds were in the same boat, Sisko said just that when the Dominion first invaded that the fleet was struggling thanks to the Borg incursion and the war with the Klingons.

I remember that. Starfleet was spread thinly after fighting off the Borg and the Klingons. So they couldn't guarantee Bajor's safety that much at that point.

Starfleet's ability to fight or battle readiness is sometimes inconsistent -
With the Romulans, an admiral tells him they were prepared to take them on.

Later, after the Borg incident, Shelby tells Picard that they would have the fleet back up in a year.

With the Cardassians, an admiral tells Picard Starfleet is not ready for another sustained conflict, around the same time.


Section 31 member Sloan had said that after the war, only the Federation and Romulans would be the remaining powers on the scene. The Klingons would take time to rebuild their fleets and resources.

I think the Klingons enjoyed a lot of prosperity because of their alliance with the Federation. When they went to war with Cardassia, it cost them ships and resources, and later when the Dominion came and the war began, it cost them even more.

With the Romulans, the Tal Shiar incindent possibly cost ships and resources and put the Romulans at a serious security risk. They went back into seclusion like before, which I think is a tactic they use to rebuild their fleets.

The Cardassians had lost ships throughout the Klingon/Dominion war. Before that, they lost ships in the Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar incident, which opened a serious security risk for them too.

Only the Federation, who was wise enough to avoid needless warfare and strikes, had a relatively healthy fleet and therefore, military.

That was one reason I saw the wisdom in their peace keeping attitude.

However, even during that time, certain things, like upgrading planetary defenses, could have been done.

They had so much time! Betazed is said to have fallen, partly because their defense systems were obsolete and undermanned.

Knowing what a brutal force the Dominion is, it is hard to understand how or why the Federation or the Betazoids themselves neglected to make sure Betazed's systems were not upgraded and manned.

I'm assuming that planetary phasers and weapons are more powerful and can be almost infinetly more numerous, enough so that it could hold off the Dominion until reinforcements returned. It might have prevented the occupation.

It appears that the Federation is quite 'wealthy' and had a lot of reserves and it's output was only fraction until the war began.