The Top Major Screw ups & Mistakes Of The Dominon War?

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think one big Federation mistake was to not back the Detapa Council WHOLEHEARTEDLY.

If, once the Klingons abrogated the Khitomer Accords, the Federation had decided to bear down on the Klingons with their full might until they had no choice but to let go of Cardassia (I mean, if I remember right, the Klingons kept going even after the Changeling Martok was exposed!)...

you might've had a different situation. Dukat might never have run to the Dominion, and instead, when the Dominion DID come through the wormhole, they'd be facing a very different situation

I think everyone, as far as some of the fans were concerned, had a 'who cares' as far as the Cardassians, because their hands were not clean for quite a while, all those past incidents with the Federation AFTER the treaty was signed....

keep writing the fandom, I like them!

Ahhh, but I feel that the Klingons' hands are far from clean as well. They continued to function as an empire after they allied with the Federation--to dedicate the efforts of their empire to war, even if they didn't happen to pick on the Federation.

So frankly, if you ask me, you've got one non-democratic government on a permanent war footing versus a government that's taking steps towards democracy...I'm going to back the democratizing one every time because THAT is the one that actually has a chance to move past what it used to be and the other is still stagnating in its old state.

 

[Myasishchev]

^Photon, I think that's an astute observation.

I wonder if it's possible to analogize the two designs beyond appearance. If so, we could determine how effective the Dominion BB was--at least a match for two modern warbirds (assuming the Valdore type is equivalent to or an improvement on the D'Deridex, although it obviously isn't in looks ) and a Sovereign class CA. In fact, the Scimitar was probably more than a match for all three, and only Shinzon's utter incompetence/Picard-specific vampirism allowed her to be defeated by the joint Rom/Fed force. If they are close designs, then a Dom BB would be far more potent than any contemporary Federation design. The Klingon Negh'Vars failed totally against a thirty year old, if refitted, ship in AGT, so we might suppose that class is also not equal to the Dom BB or the Scimitar.

It is a bit of a leap, though, to make such assumptions.

At the least, however, I think that the Romulans, seeing the Dom BB, wanted something like it, and possibly chose it as a basic template on which to design their replacement for the D'Deridex.

 

[Photon]

^Photon, I think that's an astute observation.

I wonder if it's possible to analogize the two designs beyond appearance. If so, we could determine how effective the Dominion BB was--at least a match for two modern warbirds (assuming the Valdore type is equivalent to or an improvement on the D'Deridex, although it obviously isn't in looks ) and a Sovereign class CA. In fact, the Scimitar was probably more than a match for all three, and only Shinzon's utter incompetence/Picard-specific vampirism allowed her to be defeated by the joint Rom/Fed force. If they are close designs, then a Dom BB would be far more potent than any contemporary Federation design. The Klingon Negh'Vars failed totally against a thirty year old, if refitted, ship in AGT, so we might suppose that class is also not equal to the Dom BB or the Scimitar.

It is a bit of a leap, though, to make such assumptions.

At the least, however, I think that the Romulans, seeing the Dom BB, wanted something like it, and possibly chose it as a basic template on which to design their replacement for the D'Deridex.

Agree. I think Romulans got a hold of a Jem Heavy Battle Ship or perhaps their lackeys, the Remans got it. Rikard did say Shinzon won 12 battles vs the Dominion and the Remans were fierce fighters
Perhaps the Romulans got the ship (see Prometheus scheme) and had the Reman slaves work to rebuild (in a secluded place-dark side of Remus) and the slaves rebelled and Shinzon took the ship

An uber, bad ass ship like that just didn't seem like the Romulan MO

 

[Myasishchev]

I dunno, the Scimitar's predecessor was huge--the D'Deridex was about six times larger than the Enterprise-D by volume, and much bigger than the Scimitar, maybe more than twice the size even with the empty space between the two hulls. The Dom BB is about twice the size of the D'Deridex, but then the BB is frighteningly large, 1500m in length (I think this is stated in Valiant, but otherwise it's what Ex Astris arrived at). The D'Deridex does, however, outsize the Dominion battlecruiser. The Scimitar, too, is somewhere between the BC and the BB.

The D'Deridex was never specifically portrayed as uber-badass, but then, really, it was hardly portrayed at all. The closest we get to seeing the D'D show its stuff is in The Die is Cast and some of the later DS9 eps, particularly The Changing Face of Evil. In both circumstances, the plot (and Jem'Hadar numbers and Breen EMP weapon, respectively) requires them to be burning wrecks by the end of the show. I can't think of anytime the Enterprise actually fought a D'D, but I'd presume, lacking the power of contracts, the Enterprise would have been outmatched.

 

[Jono]

^ The D'Deridex's volume was mostly empty space. It would probably be comparable to the Galaxy in terms of mass.

 

[Photon]

^ The D'Deridex's volume was mostly empty space. It would probably be comparable to the Galaxy in terms of mass.

Exactly.

As cool as the Warbird was, it rarely had on screen success

 

[Jono]

^ The D'Deridex's volume was mostly empty space. It would probably be comparable to the Galaxy in terms of mass.

Exactly.

As cool as the Warbird was, it rarely had on screen success

This is my personal opinion but the D'deridex seems to be a show-pony. All appearance no real (significant) substance. By that I mean its meant to just appear impressive, to cow the Romulan's enemies but in reality it is an "average" combatant.

We see in Tears of the Prophets that a Warbird was fairly easily dispatched by the Cardassian weapons platforms, whereas the USS Galaxy took a beating but lived to fight later on. Add to the fact that we hear that the Romulans took heavy casualties in Chin'toka at the start of the 7th and then again that their line were collapsing in the series finale it would seem that in the tough combat arena of the Dominion War that the Romulans were a bit subpar.

 

[Nightdiamond]

This is my personal opinion but the D'deridex seems to be a show-pony. All appearance no real (significant) substance. By that I mean its meant to just appear impressive, to cow the Romulan's enemies but in reality it is an "average" combatant.

We see in Tears of the Prophets that a Warbird was fairly easily dispatched by the Cardassian weapons platforms, whereas the USS Galaxy took a beating but lived to fight later on. Add to the fact that we hear that the Romulans took heavy casualties in Chin'toka at the start of the 7th and then again that their line were collapsing in the series finale it would seem that in the tough combat arena of the Dominion War that the Romulans were a bit subpar.

Their flagship was also destroyed in that battle. The Romulan's style of strategy was a bit naive at first it seems. They were content to continue destoying jem hadar fleets, one after the other, convinced that it would mean victory.

Admiral Ross, Worf and Sisko had to convince them that the jem hadar would just keep sending more until it wore the Romulans down. It seems that the Federation and the Klingons had more experience fighting the Dominion, which may be why they were able to last a bit longer in a fight.

By staying out of the war those first few years, the Romulans entered it with less battle experience..

On the plus side, the Romulan were said to have struck 15 bases very quickly when they entered the war, and they forced the Domion to retreat from Benzar.

 

[Photon]

On the plus side, the Romulan were said to have struck 15 bases very quickly when they entered the war, and they forced the Domion to retreat from Benzar.

i've never understood this. How the romulans moved that fast against cardassia. Did they have a fleet ALREADY in the AQ? Doubt if SF would have liked that Perhaps they had moved the fleet to neutral space, I wished there were a definitive map (war period) that showed Romulan/Klingon space bordered w/Cardassia.

Then the old conflict between Cardassia and the Klingons would make much more sense and show how easy the Romulans could strike Cardassia.

The playback of the fake Weyoun said theDoms could be on Romulus in 6 weeks. BS No freaking way.

 

[Nightdiamond]

On the plus side, the Romulan were said to have struck 15 bases very quickly when they entered the war, and they forced the Domion to retreat from Benzar.

i've never understood this. How the romulans moved that fast against cardassia. Did they have a fleet ALREADY in the AQ? Doubt if SF would have liked that Perhaps they had moved the fleet to neutral space, I wished there were a definitive map (war period) that showed Romulan/Klingon space bordered w/Cardassia.

Then the old conflict between Cardassia and the Klingons would make much more sense and show how easy the Romulans could strike Cardassia.

The playback of the fake Weyoun said theDoms could be on Romulus in 6 weeks. BS No freaking way.

Maybe they hit some outlying bases? Or maybe moving fast under cloak perhaps....seems like they had their fleets ready to go and positioned to go so fast...

I always got the impression that Romulus wasn't directly connnected to Cardassia, but then I also remembered that in one episode, Dax was bothered by the idea that the jem hadar were sneaking through Romulan space to attack starfleet ships...

 

[Jono]

i've never understood this. How the romulans moved that fast against cardassia. Did they have a fleet ALREADY in the AQ? Doubt if SF would have liked that Perhaps they had moved the fleet to neutral space, I wished there were a definitive map (war period) that showed Romulan/Klingon space bordered w/Cardassia.

Then the old conflict between Cardassia and the Klingons would make much more sense and show how easy the Romulans could strike Cardassia.

The playback of the fake Weyoun said theDoms could be on Romulus in 6 weeks. BS No freaking way.

Maybe they hit some outlying bases? Or maybe moving fast under cloak perhaps....seems like they had their fleets ready to go and positioned to go so fast...

I always got the impression that Romulus wasn't directly connnected to Cardassia, but then I also remembered that in one episode, Dax was bothered by the idea that the jem hadar were sneaking through Romulan space to attack starfleet ships...

The Romulans and Klingons are considered Beta Quadrant powers but then again the Federation is considered an Alpha Quadrant power and we know that it has quite a bit of territory including major worlds in the Beta Quadrant. So it isn't hard to believe that the Klingons and Romulans also expand into the Alpha Quadrant.

It is also possible that while Romulan space and Cardassian space were not connected that thanks to the shifting lines of the war that they then became connected due to Dominion gains.

 

[USS KG5]

The Dominion should have blasted all the escape pods after they destroyed the defiant.
Also if brean weapon was that good they should have just carried on till they got to earth not stopped while star fleet regrouped.

Wasn't that a trial though? So by the time they studied the data, the Klingons had a defense? Hmmm... interesting.

Well there is a lot to comment on in this thread but I will pick this one up first...

How many ships did the Dominion have with the Breen weapon at the time of the Chintoka battle where they destroyed the 311 alliance ships? Maybe only a few dozen Breen ships carried it. They simply could not send the rest of their fleet against the entire alliance until fitted with the weapon.

The Klingons therefore were capable of holding back the Dominion while this modificatino went on, and thanks to Damar the Feds had a defense before the Dominion's edge was able to be deployed.

Essentially the Dominion's mistake was very much like the first Deployment of the Tank at the Somme - far too early. They needed to fit their whole fleet with it, then use it.

However - it seems at this point the war was decidedly turning against them, if they had waited that long without giving the alliance a very bloody nose, they could have lost altogether.

 

[Brento]

something ive always thought, is that they didnt try hard enough to flush out the founders hiding within the federation and on DS9 itself. surely they could of come up with some way of detecting them than a simple prick on the arm blood test.

 

[Jono]

^ They did, polaron emitters and phaser sweeps.

 

[Brento]

but how many times were they caught off guard, bashir being tucked away for how ever long in that prison camp while his replacement ran wild, for example.

 

[Jono]

but how many times were they caught off guard, bashir being tucked away for how ever long in that prison camp while his replacement ran wild, for example.

Martok, Leyton, that ambassador in the season 3 final, Bashir. So four times in 5 years.

Not too bad pull given that the Dominion didn't know everything the Feds were up to shows that whatever measures that had were able to keep their secrets secret and we did not hear much in the way of significant sabotage by Founders. In fact during the war Dominion intelligence seemed to be mostly from conventional means. I can only recall the Female Changelings decree that the Federation had countered the Breen weapon at the end of the war as a piece of intel that just came out of no where. I think Weyoun asks her if she is sure so he hadn't heard and he was a lot more tied into the running of the war then the Founder.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Hi Usskg5.. That's a good way of looking at it, which explains a lot- I'm going to address this one fully later on because there are SO many holes and mistakes and questions! Almost ever power in this screwed up, and the war could have went either way...

Martok, Leyton, that ambassador in the season 3 final, Bashir. So four times in 5 years.

Not too bad pull given that the Dominion didn't know everything the Feds were up to shows that whatever measures that had were able to keep their secrets secret and we did not hear much in the way of significant sabotage by Founders. In fact during the war Dominion intelligence seemed to be mostly from conventional means. I can only recall the Female Changelings decree that the Federation had countered the Breen weapon at the end of the war as a piece of intel that just came out of no where. I think Weyoun asks her if she is sure so he hadn't heard and he was a lot more tied into the running of the war then the Founder.

In the intelligence gathering area, in a comparison between the Dominion and the Federation, I have to give the award to the Federation.

The Federation was able to locate the White Production Facility, a sensor array hidden in a nebula, a gigantic battleship, plots to assassinate political leaders, secret shipyards... and starfleet took advantage of each one of them...

The Dominion didn't seem to make as many discoveries that gave them such a edge, though even with those federation victories, they were still beating the Federation...


Federation Mistake during the prewar times...

1. Dax's response to the jem hadar- lack of diplomatic response..

This one was a pretty hot topic, how Dax responded to the jem hadar's warning that if the Federation didn't wish to continue 'offending' the Dominion, they would stop coming through the wormhole...

Dax's respons, and basically the Fedration's response was that the Dominion was mistaken if they felt that their actions would stop them from exploring the Gamma quadrant.

It's strange because after giving such a response, and what happened as a result, the Federation took great efforts to try to contact the Founders themselves just to give a message of peace.

The problem was that the mission was covert and involved ironically-coming into the Gamma quadrant!

The arguement for Dax's statement?

Granted, the Dominion doesn't own the entire Gamma quadrant, and the Dominion doesn't equal the entire Gamma quadrant. They don't own the wormhole, and from what Starfleet had heard about the Dominion, they were bullies who did not respect the rights of other civilizations..

So her response was appropriate from this point of view. A possibility however was that Starfleet was yet to see how dangerous the Dominion was and how aggressive they were-once that response was given, the Federation had a problem on their hands whether they wanted one or not...

 

[Brento]

but how many times were they caught off guard, bashir being tucked away for how ever long in that prison camp while his replacement ran wild, for example.

Martok, Leyton, that ambassador in the season 3 final, Bashir. So four times in 5 years.

Not too bad pull given that the Dominion didn't know everything the Feds were up to shows that whatever measures that had were able to keep their secrets secret and we did not hear much in the way of significant sabotage by Founders. In fact during the war Dominion intelligence seemed to be mostly from conventional means. I can only recall the Female Changelings decree that the Federation had countered the Breen weapon at the end of the war as a piece of intel that just came out of no where. I think Weyoun asks her if she is sure so he hadn't heard and he was a lot more tied into the running of the war then the Founder.

when you put it like that it doesnt sound all too bad

 

[Myasishchev]

^ The D'Deridex's volume was mostly empty space. It would probably be comparable to the Galaxy in terms of mass.

Eyeballing it, even with the large open area between the upper and lower wings, the D'Dereidex appears to have huge internal space. If the D'D is 1200m long, the beak almost definitely has more internal space than the E-D's saucer. The rest of the ship is bigger than all of the E-D. And the Galaxy, to the best of our knowledge, is the biggest warship ever fielded by the Federation.

I was going to google it, see if maybe Ex Astris or someone had figured it out, and the fourth hit is your post. I was like, "This is relevant, but it sounds familiar."

Edit: fwiw, the Galaxy might look bigger than it is because of the arrangement of its parts. The D'D has a gulf between its nacelles--so does the Gal.

We see in Tears of the Prophets that a Warbird was fairly easily dispatched by the Cardassian weapons platforms, whereas the USS Galaxy took a beating but lived to fight later on. Add to the fact that we hear that the Romulans took heavy casualties in Chin'toka at the start of the 7th and then again that their line were collapsing in the series finale it would seem that in the tough combat arena of the Dominion War that the Romulans were a bit subpar.

Good points.

I echo Nightdiamond's rationale for this--the Romulans haven't been in a war, that we know if, in something like decades by this point. Whereas the Feds have fought for three years, against each other first, and then the Doms. The Fed/Kling DC teams have been separated into the good and the ionized gas, while the Romulans have amateurs trying to keep their troublesome quantum singularity engines from popping like Hawking firecrackers.

I wonder, given the effectiveness of the Scimitar, if its build was really such a quantum leap over the D'D. Perhaps the D'D is older than I imagine--its production run may have started as soon as the early 24th century.

For what it's worth, the Scimitar and the Valdores, I suspect, are powered by a conventional M/A engine, instead of the unreliable black hole engines of the D'D that seem to limit its speed and, given that the two seem entwined, the deflection capacity of its shields.

 

[Myasishchev]

i've never understood this. How the romulans moved that fast against cardassia. Did they have a fleet ALREADY in the AQ? Doubt if SF would have liked that Perhaps they had moved the fleet to neutral space, I wished there were a definitive map (war period) that showed Romulan/Klingon space bordered w/Cardassia.

Then the old conflict between Cardassia and the Klingons would make much more sense and show how easy the Romulans could strike Cardassia.

The playback of the fake Weyoun said theDoms could be on Romulus in 6 weeks. BS No freaking way.

In some other thread someone posted an excellent overlay of the two maps from Star Charts (the political circa 2366 map and the Dominion War pre-Romulan DoW map). The upshot is that the Federation has been cut nearly in half by a huge Dominion salient that pushes into Klingon territory, swings up coreward toward Benzar, and presses neatly against the Romulan Neutral Zone. It's through this corridor that the Dominion uses Romulan space to make sneak attacks. It is also this corridor that, presumably, is struck when the Romulans mobilize. The large amount of Dominion forces in the salient could be profitably redirected toward Romulus, as well, making Weyoun's statement plausible if a little overoptimistic.