Spoilers The Strange New Worlds Starship Thread™

[HotRod]

The supposed length of the TOS Enterprise is especially problematic when you consider that the ship was originally designed to be much smaller. The bigger bridge dome showed that much. I believe the Saucer was also implied to be a single deck, if we go by window placement.

But, we rightfully ignore that and accept the Enterprise as being larger. Just as we do now with SNW.

 

[passinglurker]

It’s the only series to give the ship a length period

Cause like we established with the excelsior tangent earlier in the threat facts only count when said as bluntly as possible never mind decades of precedent and context/s

Answer me this if a Connie was as wide as an excelsior what reason would there be to make the centaur class? after all a miranda based on a 442meter connie would be the exact same size and engine layout.

 

[passinglurker]

The supposed length of the TOS Enterprise is especially problematic when you consider that the ship was originally designed to be much smaller. The bigger bridge dome showed that much. I believe the Saucer was also implied to be a single deck, if we go by window placement.

But, we rightfully ignore that and accept the Enterprise as being larger. Just as we do now with SNW.

That would be an acceptable answer, had SNW made a proper engineering set that fit in the hull and not an AR wall. But with no improvement there is no reason to change.

 

[Dukhat]

Answer me this if a Connie was as wide as an excelsior what reason would there be to make the centaur class? after all a miranda based on a 442meter connie would be the exact same size and engine layout.

The Centaur, when scaled to the Miranda class by both its bridge dome and the weapons pod, is still considerably smaller than the latter ship.

*Edit* I'm referring to the original DS9 kitbash, not the scaled-up versions we saw in Prodigy.

 

[fireproof78]

It's art. I welcome the change.

 

[Tuskin38]

That would be an acceptable answer, had SNW made a proper engineering set that fit in the hull and not an AR wall. But with no improvement there is no reason to change.

But the sats have never fit so why does it matter?

 

[passinglurker]

But the sats have never fit so why does it matter?

First they have in cases like the NX-01, and second why does 442 meters matter more than 288 meters? Give me a reason to care beyond "someone covering for Disco's poor decisions says so", I've made it clear several times that I would drop the old stat in a heartbeat if they showed enough attention to detail that the sets matched the model, but as things stand now they are both equally wrong so I might as well disregard the wrong figure that has the least amount of work based on it.

 

[HotRod]

Answer me this if a Connie was as wide as an excelsior what reason would there be to make the centaur class? after all a miranda based on a 442meter connie would be the exact same size and engine layout.

For all we know, the Centaur could be 50+ years newer then a Miranda. And as has been brought up, the Excelsior class scale has always been way off. Surface details point to it being a significantly larger ship then any of the numbers put forward in non-canon tech manuals and such. A 600m Excelsior would not be absurd.

 

[Tuskin38]

someone covering for Disco's poor decisions says so",

That’s an opinion

 

[HotRod]

I might as well disregard the wrong figure that has the least amount of work based on it.

But the SNW Enterprise has far more work put into its 442m size then the 289m TOS Version. Yes, it seems they have to cheat to fit Main Engineering, but pretty much everything else works. Certainly more then the 289m TOS ship with 9 ft ceilings and a shuttlebay that doesn't fit. Even Doug Drexler couldn't seem to scale the bloody thing under 400m.

 

[passinglurker]

The Centaur, when scaled to the Miranda class by both its bridge dome and the weapons pod, is still considerably smaller than the latter ship.

*Edit* I'm referring to the original DS9 kitbash, not the scaled-up versions we saw in Prodigy.

All commentary on the Centaur I've ever heard has disavowed trying to scale it to the pod instead of the diameter of the saucer

For all we know, the Centaur could be 50+ years newer then a Miranda. And as has been brought up, the Excelsior class scale has always been way off. Surface details point to it being a significantly larger ship then any of the numbers put forward in non-canon tech manuals and such. A 600m Excelsior would not be absurd.

600m Excelsior, means 600m Ambassador, which means 800m galaxy and so on. Excelsior may be known for its scale wiggleing but the fact remains that its saucer is supposed to be notably bigger than the Connie's saucer on screen, and as such the excelsior based light crusier is supposed to be bigger and more powerful than the connie based light crusier.

That’s an opinion

If its just an opinion why didn't they make it an even 400 meters in length, and kept the old dimensions for the sets? or keep the original 288 meter length and rip the bandaid off the sets with smaller internals? The only reason to change both and fail at lining them up was cause they were more concerned about fitting in with Disco's ill conceived visuals. I get it they gotta keep the ones providing the funds happy in the present but inevitably the change won't stick, the next startrek series to feature a connie is gonna treat it as the same 288meter size its always been treated cause there's no reason not to.

But the SNW Enterprise has far more work put into its 442m size then the 289m TOS Version. Yes, it seems they have to cheat to fit Main Engineering, but pretty much everything else works. Certainly more then the 289m TOS ship with 9 ft ceilings and a shuttlebay that doesn't fit. Even Doug Drexler couldn't seem to scale the bloody thing under 400m.

All the secondary hull areas are AR walls (engineering, cargo, shuttle) why shouldn't I assume they aren't all just as broken scale wise as engineering? And I can make the sets for the primary hull fit the old figures just fine (kirks bridge is clearly a separate module stacked on top of the saucer later, and since we only ever see quarters on the upper level of the rim, I can assume that lower deckers just have to duck in thier bunks due to a lower ceiling, etc) without more solid proof of how its all supposed to fit together at this scale without cheats I see no reason not to persist with the original size.

 

[HotRod]

600m Excelsior, means 600m Ambassador, which means 800m galaxy and so on.

Says who?

but the fact remains that its saucer is supposed to be notably bigger than the Connie's saucer

Says who?

and as such the excelsior based light crusier is supposed to be bigger and more powerful than the connie based light crusier.

Says who?

Disco's ill conceived visuals.

That's a matter of opinion.

but inevitably the change won't stick, the next startrek series to feature a connie is gonna treat it as the same 288meter size

Says who?

I see no reason not to persist with the original size.

Which has never once been stated in canon.

 

[passinglurker]

Says who?

Years of context and precedent silently working from the same set of reference materials. Where do you get off asking the obvious?

 

[Dukhat]

All commentary on the Centaur I've ever heard has disavowed trying to scale it to the pod instead of the diameter of the saucer.

The Centaur as seen in "A Time to Stand" (DS9) was meant to be scaled to the Jem'Hadar fighter it was in combat with. The Centaurs seen in PRO were meant to be scaled to the Excelsior class. They might as well be two different classes of ship, like how there are different size classes of the Klingon Bird of Prey.

 

[HotRod]

Where do you get off asking the obvious?

Where do you get off assuming you know better then the producers of the series that say the Enterprise is 442m? Especially when they've gone out of their way and have been pretty consistent in showing the ship to be that size.

I mean, this isn't the JJ Prise, where the ship was designed a certain size, and then upscaled, and then upscaled even further in certain shots and we had to debate the size for months and months Until a number was finalized.

From the second the ship appeared onscreen, it's been 442m. The vfx model is scaled at that and the Dedication plaque, which can be read on screen, clearly reads 442m. Hell, the licensed products have it at 442m. So to go against that number at this point is simply being a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian.

 

[HotRod]

We've had this very argument a hundred times. It's getting sad and I'm mad at myself for constantly getting sucked into it.

 

[passinglurker]

The Centaur as seen in "A Time to Stand" (DS9) was meant to be scaled to the Jem'Hadar fighter it was in combat with. The Centaurs seen in PRO were meant to be scaled to the Excelsior class. They might as well be two different classes of ship, like how there are different size classes of the Klingon Bird of Prey.

This is just subjective opinion but I've never been one for accepting that some classes are just ++'d or --'d versions of other classes, so when they come up I usually assume either...
A. scale is fudged for dramatic effect (much like SNW-prise's and the Defiant's entire on screen existance)
B. Ship class and the visuals differentiating them have been fudged for lack of budget (for example the many different sizes of klingon BOP I would expect given the budget and opportunity they would have be given different models to represent the different sizes)

We've had this very argument a hundred times. It's getting sad and I'm mad at myself for constantly getting sucked into it.

You sucked yourself into it. I've been content to see things my way and let others see things their way, (I'll be proven right of course given enough time, but that's besides the point) you're the one who can't let it go that I won't see SNW's enterprise as an inch over 1000 feet long, and am not bothered with the discontinuity this figure may have with the shows visuals.

 

[Dukhat]

This is just subjective opinion but I've never been one for accepting that some classes are just ++'d or --'d versions of other classes, so when they come up I usually assume either...
A. scale is fudged for dramatic effect (much like SNW-prise's and the Defiant's entire on screen existance)
B. Ship class and the visuals differentiating them have been fudged for lack of budget (for example the many different sizes of klingon BOP I would expect given the budget and opportunity they would have be given different models to represent the different sizes)

The Centaur in DS9 was specifically modified to be scaled down relative to the Jem'Hadar fighter. Adam Buckner, who built the model, was instructed by Gary Hutzel to do this.

The Centaurs used in PRO were CGI models taken right from Eaglemoss, which had created a different sized ship from the physical model Buckner built. It was scaled to an Excelsior rather than a Miranda, does not have the Miranda bridge module (it has a regular Excelsior module), and has numerous differences from the studio model.

You are free to believe otherwise, but these differences in scale and design indicate two different classes as far as I'm concerned.

 

[passinglurker]

The Centaur in DS9 was specifically modified to be scaled down relative to the Jem'Hadar fighter. Adam Buckner, who built the model, was instructed by Gary Hutzel to do this.

The Centaurs used in PRO were CGI models taken right from Eaglemoss, which had created a different sized ship from the physical model Buckner built. It was scaled to an Excelsior rather than a Miranda, does not have the Miranda bridge module (it has a regular Excelsior module), and has numerous differences from the studio model.

You are free to believe otherwise, but these differences in scale and design indicate two different classes as far as I'm concerned.

I guess I just find it unsatisfactory because the model is still clearly an excelsior saucer and nacelles but with extra greebles put on to try to suggest a smaller scale, and so I would exercise my freedom to believe either...
A. the real mini-centaur looks different enough that its kitbash sources aren't obvious
B. there is a class lineage of mini-excelsior's out there somewhere to provide the smaller saucers, much like the relation of the new orleans/cheyenne/spiringfield to the galaxy/nebula. Perhaps the unused study models that wound up in that federation bone yard? but now I'm just wildly speculating.

 

[Rahul]

The supposed length of the TOS Enterprise is especially problematic when you consider that the ship was originally designed to be much smaller. The bigger bridge dome showed that much. I believe the Saucer was also implied to be a single deck, if we go by window placement.

But, we rightfully ignore that and accept the Enterprise as being larger. Just as we do now with SNW.

That's the big one. "The cage" enterprise is only half the size of the "normal" Enterprise.

Matt Jeffries designed the ship - which length was never too be mentioned according to the series bible - but gave it a real life number for behind-the-scenes planning. That ship has only one deck in the saucer.

Then they doubled the size, because otherwise the shuttle bay wouldn't fit. That's why the second window row on the saucer looks a bit awkward. Ironically they only doubled the crew size as well (200 to 400), because writers don't understand the square cube law.

Funnily enough, the only canon graphic (where all the arguments come from) does NOT show a 289m Enterprise! Because that graphic is a distorted version of Jeffries one. They even upscaled it back then. Only the paper version shows 289m. Since then, TMP has firmly established that the Enterprise has 2 decks in it's saucer.

Even more ironic, when JJ Abrams made his movies, he doubled the size of the Enterprise AGAIN, and again for the shuttle bay, because he wanted his ridiculous Star Wars hall in there.

The discussion here reminds me of Ex-Astris writing paragraphs not accepting the Kelvin-universe size, despite that being proven by everything in the movie itself.