The positive Voyager thread: What was good with the series?

[Starflight]

I like lots of things about Voyager, mostly the same things I like about TNG. It's a vehicle to tell interesting science fiction stories and morality plays with a mostly likeable cast of characters. Janeway is also a refreshing character when contrasted with Picard and Sisko - more idealistic and optimistic than Sisko, but more action oriented and prone to Kirk-style moments of almost logic-defying badassery than Picard was.

Voyager also did meta episodes really well and was often given to taking itself a lot less seriously than TNG and DS9. It opens the opportunity for episodes that are just there explicitly for fun and nothing else, and most of them work, except for the Captain Proton ones, which are shit. But even then, Kate Mulgrew's spider queen outfit gets a laugh every time.

I've just recently started to actually enjoy Voyager -- within the last few months -- and for exactly the reason I previously disliked it. I always hated how this show refused to engage with the darkness of it's premise. But lately, as the actual world gets darker, and as I spend more and more of my own time directly engaging with said darkness, I find more value in a show about people in a terrible, seemingly hopeless situation, but who insistently stay positive and upbeat, to a degree that's almost delusional.

Agreed, I like how everyone's almost ridiculously chilled out about their situation and how they continuously decide to take opportunities to explore and find cool things on the journey home.

A lot of people seemed to hate that aspect introduced by TNG, that Federation humans in the 24th century completely under-react to basically everything and are prepared to risk their lives daily just for the sake of exploration, but I liked it a lot.

 

[Discofan]

Parodic?

I am sure there's a question pending...

 

[Prax]

I am sure there's a question pending...

I understand "parodic" to mean "a parody," as in "a comedic or satirical imitation."

 

[Discofan]

I understand "parodic" to mean "a parody," as in "a comedic or satirical imitation."

Yes, that's what I intended it to mean.

Take the Doctor and his operatic efforts for example, especially in that episode where he loses his mind... That's definitely a parody. There are plenty of others like that.

 

[Prax]

Couldn't we just bypass parodical and move straight to satirical?

NVM, as you were

 

[Discofan]

Although admittedly it's often the Doctor like when he parodies Beowulf for example but we also see some efforts with Janeway with that FlashGordonlike program...

 

[Lynx]

Just saying, this doesn't sound particularly positive to me. It sounds like the same old rhetoric that's been said over and over and over. So, allow me.

Kes was a terrible character. She brought nothing to the ensemble, she brought nothing to the show. Episodes that feature her are among my least favorites. Part of the problem is she looks like a little elfin boy, and the other problem is, Jennifer Lein can't act. Or, at least she brought nothing to that character.

Harry was boring because the "naive young ensign" shtick got tiresome quickly, and that's all the character ever was. And, Garett Wang wasn't a good choice to play that type of character, anyway. He appeared "too old and experienced" from the first episode. That being said, the character at least had a place in the ensemble.

What was good in the show?

First, they realized that they needed a strong, "mysterious" character to add some manageable tension and conflict, that wouldn't get old. And they added Seven. Seven was the "Spock" or "Data" character. She was intelligent and conflicted with her own self as they both were. Just like Spock and Data, there was plenty of room for her to conquer that inner conflict, and grow as a person. It was the absolute right thing to do. There is no way Kes could have brought this to that show.

Second, this was the only incarnation of Star Trek that stayed close to the spirit of TOS. TNG was a cruise ship in space, complete with it's own armchair psychologist. DS9 certainly didn't. Janeway was a strong captain that was not afraid to be the captain. They also boldly went where no man had gone before.

Third, Robert Picardo was perfectly cast. My favorite ST doctor.

I'm tired of hearing how boring Harry was or Tom, or Chakotay was. Because I think people forget that on TOS, Chekov was boring, Sulu was boring, Nurse Chapel was boring, Scotty was boring, and the entire show was Kirk and Spock with a dash of McCoy, who was somewhat boring too. I certainly think Tom and Harry were better characters than Chekov and Sulu. On TNG The doctor was so boring they tried to get rid of her, some nutcase usenet fans hated Wesley Crusher so bad they pretty much drove the character off the show and hated on the actor to the point of nervous breakdown. Levar Burton was OK as long as he didn't have to try to act beyond the 5 or 6 lines he repeated every episode, and please explain Tasha Yar to me. Thank God for Worf. Half of the DS9 ensemble is just unlikable, forget boring. Again, thank God for Worf.

The point is, we see what we like with rose colored glasses, and hate on the rest. But it's virtually all the same. It really is. Except maybe Enterprise. They tried to do something different there.

I have to strongly disagree with some of your comments.

Kes isn't terrible in any way. I find her one of the best characters ever in Star trek, mostly because she isn't the typical cut-out Star Trek female hero. She is beautiful and nice, yes but also brave, strong-willed, determined and curious with interesting mental abilities. She also has a way to solve problems by moving around them and attacking them from another angle. She's both a contrast and a complement to more standard characters like janeway, Torres and Seven.

With her will to learn and explore she personifies the spirit of Star Trek, a spirit which was gone when she was dumped from the series.

As for Lien, she was brilliant when she was given the chance to stand under the brightest spotlight.

As for Harry Kim, it's all about bad writing. Compare with the Voyager books from seasons 1-3 where he's actually doing something, even if he has the bad habit to be badly injured now and then.

Everybody hates the strong female captain, the men who are subordinate to her, the strong and confident Seven, but everyone loves Kes, a weak, helpless little elfin boy that needs Neelix to save her, the doctor to teach her to be a nurse, Tuvok to teach her to be telepathic, and be weak enough for an alien to take over her mind.

"Elfin boy"? Do you consider Tasha Yar, Kira, Ezri Dax and T'Pol as "elfin boys" as well? maybe it's time to buy glasses or lenses.

As for Kes, she isn't weak or helpless. She has the guts to solve the difficult situations she face without help.

 

[Prax]

As for Harry Kim, it's all about bad writing. Compare with the Voyager books from seasons 1-3 where he's actually doing something, even if he has the bad habit to be badly injured now and then.

what is the key component missing from those books vs the show?

The actor. "The writers" are an easy target. People are less inclined to criticize the actors, but the actors can make or break either a good or a bad script. Also, if an actor continually gives performances that the producers and directors are unsatisfied with, they will be shuffled to a place where they can better contribute, such as a more supporting role.

 

[jmidnight_99]

I have to strongly disagree with some of your comments.

Kes isn't terrible in any way. I find her one of the best characters ever in Star trek, mostly because she isn't the typical cut-out Star Trek female hero. She is beautiful and nice, yes but also brave, strong-willed, determined and curious with interesting mental abilities. She also has a way to solve problems by moving around them and attacking them from another angle. She's both a contrast and a complement to more standard characters like janeway, Torres and Seven.

With her will to learn and explore she personifies the spirit of Star Trek, a spirit which was gone when she was dumped from the series.

As for Lien, she was brilliant when she was given the chance to stand under the brightest spotlight.

As for Harry Kim, it's all about bad writing. Compare with the Voyager books from seasons 1-3 where he's actually doing something, even if he has the bad habit to be badly injured now and then.



"Elfin boy"? Do you consider Tasha Yar, Kira, Ezri Dax and T'Pol as "elfin boys" as well? maybe it's time to buy glasses or lenses.

As for Kes, she isn't weak or helpless. She has the guts to solve the difficult situations she face without help.

She was so good... they got rid of her? I'm sorry, but to me, the character was a very boring, helpless, little elfin boy. You can talk all about how great you think she was, but I know ,and maybe you know too that she would have never been able to carry the story lines that Seven did. Kes seemed to be a glorified extra. I think the character was inferior, and the actress was inferior. I'm thinking of the episode where seven had all those flashbacks. Jeri nailed it. I Imagine Jennifer Lein in a similar role. Could she pull it off? No, sorry. Jeri Ryan was ten times the actress.

It's pointless to argue that expanding Kes' role would have improved ratings, or that the character or story lines would have improved. I can tell that you like her, but if there was something there, she would have been kept on. She was ultimately judged the most expendable character, because she was.

And yes, Denise Crosby did Star Trek a favor by quitting. Ezri Dax? Really?

 

[jmidnight_99]

Yes, that's what I intended it to mean.

Take the Doctor and his operatic efforts for example, especially in that episode where he loses his mind... That's definitely a parody. There are plenty of others like that.

A parody of what?

 

[jmidnight_99]

Voyager was good with parodic episodes, like the one with the B'omar Sovereignty for example. The way Seven humiliated these braggarts was priceless.

Ok, I see now. This isn't parody.

 

[jmidnight_99]

I've just recently started to actually enjoy Voyager -- within the last few months -- and for exactly the reason I previously disliked it. I always hated how this show refused to engage with the darkness of it's premise. But lately, as the actual world gets darker, and as I spend more and more of my own time directly engaging with said darkness, I find more value in a show about people in a terrible, seemingly hopeless situation, but who insistently stay positive and upbeat, to a degree that's almost delusional.



Well, of course you didn't, because the protests of sexualization of women on Star Trek are not about protesting sexualization, they're about protesting inequality. I've always said there's one respect in which Enterprise is clearly the best of all Trek shows: its the only series to get objectification right. For once, they objectified the men nearly as much as the women, and thus it all becomes unobjectionable. Archer/Trip getting sweaty and barechested wasn't a new problem -- it was the fix of the existing problem.

If Voyager had also picked up a hot young male character who spent years in a crotch-hugging bodysuit, there would not still be complaints about Seven's catsuit today.

(I mean, I'm sure there would have been some complaints, in that Trek fandom is huge and diverse, and at any given moment you can find someone willing to complain about literally any aspect of it. But they would have been more fringe, bullshit complaints, because with a hot guy costumed to a similarly sexualized degree, Voyager would have been walking the walk and not just talking the talk)

If WOMEN wanted to see men in a skin tight crotch hugging bodysuit as much as MEN wanted to see women in a skin tight body suit, then we would certainly see that.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Archer was written as a little too hotheaded, emotional, almost pigheaded (as in, implausibly so) on occasion, usually when interacting with Vulcans other than T'Pol. I think that should have been toned down, but overall those instances are few and far between. Besides such moments, he's portrayed as a smart guy, competent as captain, even if naive in the very early episodes.

By season 2, he's totally great at his job, and knows what he's doing. By season 3, he's grizzled; an expert and professional at dealing with aliens, hostile aliens, other problems in space, etc. By then, he's a fighter, a born leader. It's totally believable that his crew and the macos look up to, and are totally loyal to him.

He is apparently, a bungling fool.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Annorax's Delete Gun from "Year of Hell" is one of the coolest sci-fi concepts ever. Shoot something and not only does it stop existing, but it now never existed leading to a massive knock-on effect throughout the universe. And only the guys doing it and anyone who's happened upon temporal shielding knows anything's changed.

I think the irony of this episode is lost on many people.

 

[Discofan]

Ok, I see now. This isn't parody.

I am sorry but I have more interesting things to do than quibbling over minutia.

 

[Nightdiamond]

As for Lien, she was brilliant when she was given the chance to stand under the brightest spotlight.

"Elfin boy"? Do you consider Tasha Yar, Kira, Ezri Dax and T'Pol as "elfin boys" as well? maybe it's time to buy glasses or lenses.

As for Kes, she isn't weak or helpless. She has the guts to solve the difficult situations she face without help.

Kes in "Warlord" IMO, was a great episode. If they made that into a small movie, I could watch it all day.

 

[Discofan]

Kes in "Warlord" IMO, was a great episode. If they made that into a small movie, I could watch it all day.

Not to rain on your parade but it was a good episode definitely, great maybe, maybe not. However, they stretched the whole thing for as long as could be made interesting, any longer and it would have included boring parts.

 

[jaime]

I don't think the Kazon had anything in common with Klingons, whatsoever. The Kazon are completely inferior, and probably shouldn't even be used in the same sentence.

Ironically, I think the inferiority was supposed to be the point with the Kazon. They are only threat because Voyager is one ship on its own. In the Alpha or Beta Quadrants, they would have been eaten up by the bigger aggressive powers. On the far edge of the Delta Quadrant, Voyager has trouble because it’s one ship on its own. The concept gets pushed further down in the mix, but the Kazon are more street gang than superpower, and that was supposed to be the point.

 

[Discofan]

Ironically, I think the inferiority was supposed to be the point with the Kazon. They are only threat because Voyager is one ship on its own. In the Alpha or Beta Quadrants, they would have been eaten up by the bigger aggressive powers. On the far edge of the Delta Quadrant, Voyager has trouble because it’s one ship on its own. The concept gets pushed further down in the mix, but the Kazon are more street gang than superpower, and that was supposed to be the point.

Plus we know that they've stolen their technology, they never built anything on their own. It's a wonder they can even fly those ships. Well, If the Packleds can then even a chimp can.

 

[Lynx]

She was so good... they got rid of her? I'm sorry, but to me, the character was a very boring, helpless, little elfin boy. You can talk all about how great you think she was, but I know ,and maybe you know too that she would have never been able to carry the story lines that Seven did. Kes seemed to be a glorified extra. I think the character was inferior, and the actress was inferior. I'm thinking of the episode where seven had all those flashbacks. Jeri nailed it. I Imagine Jennifer Lein in a similar role. Could she pull it off? No, sorry. Jeri Ryan was ten times the actress.

It's pointless to argue that expanding Kes' role would have improved ratings, or that the character or story lines would have improved. I can tell that you like her, but if there was something there, she would have been kept on. She was ultimately judged the most expendable character, because she was.

And yes, Denise Crosby did Star Trek a favor by quitting. Ezri Dax? Really?

They got rid of her because the show was run by sex-obsessed fools.
And their first plan was to dump Kim, not Kes but when a silly inside poll in a silly magazine showed Gattert Wang among "the 50 most handsome", they dumped Kes instead.

As for Seven, she was the producers and writers obsession. It wouldn't have mattered if they had hired someone with the same "attributes" as Ryan but with lesser skill, they would still have made Seven the star, just because they wanted a the sex object who would attract teenage boys to watch Voyager.

As for Lien, she was brilliant when she was given the chance. I'm sure that she could have been as good as Ryan if she had remained in the show.

As for Denise Crosby and Nicole DeBoer, I find them great actors who did a good job. Why are you so critical when it comes to them? Do you dislike them because of their hairstyles or because they weren't wearing a catsuit?