The positive Voyager thread: What was good with the series?

[Lynx]

what is the key component missing from those books vs the show?

The actor. "The writers" are an easy target. People are less inclined to criticize the actors, but the actors can make or break either a good or a bad script. Also, if an actor continually gives performances that the producers and directors are unsatisfied with, they will be shuffled to a place where they can better contribute, such as a more supporting role.

I think that the key component wasn't the actor but the writers.
Most of the season 1-3 book authors actually outclass Berman and his gang.
Books like "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox, "Marooned" by Christie Golden and "Day Of Honor-her Klingon Soul" by Michael Jan Friedman would have been excellent two-part episodes.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Not to rain on your parade but it was a good episode definitely, great maybe, maybe not. However, they stretched the whole thing for as long as could be made interesting, any longer and it would have included boring parts.

It's not an all time great episode for Trek, but it was good enough to stand on its own.
Maybe not a grand motion picture or anything, but a short movie or short miniseries, or a three parter, I'd give it a try.

Seeing Kes as a grizzled bad ass warlord was pretty interesting. The story was pretty good too.

 

[Brennyren]

As for Lien, she was brilliant when she was given the chance. I'm sure that she could have been as good as Ryan if she had remained in the show.

Undoubtedly why we've heard so much about Jennifer since her departure from Voyager. Let's see, what did she do again?

As for Denise Crosby and Nicole DeBoer, I find them great actors who did a good job. Why are you so critical when it comes to them? Do you dislike them because of their hairstyles or because they weren't wearing a catsuit?

Lynx, just because you like someone or something doesn't mean they're great. I didn't watch much DS9 (and even less of Season Seven; with its arc storyline it wasn't a season one could watch casually), so I can't comment on DeBoer. But I watched TNG from "Encounter at Farpoint" through Insurrection, more than enough to evaluate any of the regular performers. And I can state with absolute confidence that to call Denise Crosby a "great actor" is ludicrous. On TNG, she was barely a competent actor, veering from wooden to over-the-top without much pause in-between. The day she decided she'd be better off pursuing other opportunities was the day TNG was better off, and the best thing that can be said about her return as Sela is that Sela only appeared a couple of times.

You like her. Okay; nothing wrong with that. But while I like Gates McFadden, I don't mistake her for a great actor. (Better than Crosby, though. More subtle.) And while I like "The Fight," I don't classify it as great, either. (Boy, does it not hold up to close examination!) Someone, or something, can be likable without being great.

And sexy women don't do a thing for me, so you can save the catsuit cracks.

 

[fireproof78]

Oh, by the way... you do realize that TOS had all the women in mini-mini-skirts, right?

And, as Nichelle Nicoles noted, that was fashionable at the time.

I'm waiting for the catsuit fashion trend.

Yes, I didn't hear many protests when in one episode we saw Archer and Trip play some outdoor game, all sweaty and barechested. Had they done a similar thing with women all hell would have gotten loose!!!

Stupid episode and I wanted to enjoy it for Clancy Brown but it was still...meh.

On topic, I think Tom and B'Elanna's relationship was really interesting and highly enjoyable. Probably one of the more realistic ones portrayed in Star Trek.

 

[jaime]

And, as Nichelle Nicoles noted, that was fashionable at the time.

I'm waiting for the catsuit fashion trend.

Stupid episode and I wanted to enjoy it for Clancy Brown but it was still...meh.

On topic, I think Tom and B'Elanna's relationship was really interesting and highly enjoyable. Probably one of the more realistic ones portrayed in Star Trek.

Catsuits were 90s xD

 

[fireproof78]

Catsuits were 90s xD

Must have missed it

 

[Prax]

Some of us might be wearing catsuits, right now, for all you know

 

[Brennyren]

^^^Well, thanks for that mental image....

 

[Prax]

Undoubtedly why we've heard so much about Jennifer since her departure from Voyager. Let's see, what did she do again?

or Garrett, FTM

^^^Well, thanks for that mental image....

that's...why I'm here

 

[jmidnight_99]

They got rid of her because the show was run by sex-obsessed fools.
And their first plan was to dump Kim, not Kes but when a silly inside poll in a silly magazine showed Gattert Wang among "the 50 most handsome", they dumped Kes instead.

As for Seven, she was the producers and writers obsession. It wouldn't have mattered if they had hired someone with the same "attributes" as Ryan but with lesser skill, they would still have made Seven the star, just because they wanted a the sex object who would attract teenage boys to watch Voyager.

As for Lien, she was brilliant when she was given the chance. I'm sure that she could have been as good as Ryan if she had remained in the show.

As for Denise Crosby and Nicole DeBoer, I find them great actors who did a good job. Why are you so critical when it comes to them? Do you dislike them because of their hairstyles or because they weren't wearing a catsuit?

I've never seen a blog in my life where every thread is hijacked by the same few people saying the same things over and over.

I don't dislike Denise Crosby and Nicole DeBoer, I dislike Tasha Yar and Ezri Dax. I dislike them because they were they were weak, uninteresting, childlike characters.

Worf, interesting. What he brought to the ensemble, interesting. Klingon Empire back stories, interesting. Tasha Yar, not so interesting, by the same standard. An objective person would weigh in all the Worf story lines, and realize that there would be no way Tasha Yar could carry them.

And the Worf character filled out a pretty bland ensemble for DS9 too.

You say the same stuff over and over, and it is nothing but a big pile of wishful thinking.

Kes sucked. If she didn't, they would have kept her. You can argue this point 50 different ways till Sunday, but on Sunday, Kes still sucked, and they still got rid of her. She was a weak character, and the ensemble needed some juice. They needed a Worf character.

Seven, interesting. What she brought to the ensemble, interesting. Borg back stories, interesting. Kes, not so interesting, by the same standard. An objective person would weigh in all the Seven story lines, and realize that there would be no way Kes could carry them.

I'm sorry, but Jennifer Lien was not capable of "brilliance", at least with this character. "Warlord" is smack dab at the bottom of my list because of Lien and Kes. She wasn't believable in the role, and ruined it IMO. I knew it was just an attempt to do something with the Kes character, who was, at best a third tier supporting part.

Yet, you are completely obsessed by the God damned costume. I've told you before the tits and the tight costume would not have amounted to a hill of beans if the actress couldn't act, and the character couldn't carry interesting story lines.

It makes no sense. Can we move on? Jennifer was let go because Kes was uninteresting, and Jennifer couldn't act (she hasn't even had an acting credit since 2001), and the character couldn't carry interesting stories. Please, lets move on.

 

[Starflight]

To weigh in on the ever-raging Kes debate - I like Kes. The scripts often don't really define her well but Lien plays the character in a really unexpected way. It seemed, to me at least, that Kes was sort of aloof and spacey, under-reacting to almost everything, which is a unique character type that doesn't really have any other comparison in Star Trek. It's definitely not a happy side-effect of Lien's acting range, because she demonstrates that she's capable of giving different styles of performance if given the opportunity, as in Warlord, so I can only assume she plays the character that way intentionally.

I really liked the sort of understated "oh" reactions she had to virtually everything. She's suddenly pregnant - oh. The ship's going to blow up - oh. An illusion of Tom Paris is lying in the corridor seriously injured and begging for help - oh. She's been shot into the future and is racing backwards through time - oh.

what is the key component missing from those books vs the show?

The actor. "The writers" are an easy target. People are less inclined to criticize the actors, but the actors can make or break either a good or a bad script. Also, if an actor continually gives performances that the producers and directors are unsatisfied with, they will be shuffled to a place where they can better contribute, such as a more supporting role.

I don't know about this. Garrett Wang, as much as I love him, is definitely crap (the scene where he confronts the terrorist in "Drive" is one of the meatiest scenes the series ever gives him, and his performance ends up being laugh-out-loud awful) but the scripts really give him nothing to work with 90% of the time. You could have Patrick Stewart or Jeri Ryan or Leonard Nimoy or any other top-quality actor playing Kim and the character would still completely blow.

 

[fireproof78]

t makes no sense. Can we move on? Jennifer was let go because Kes was uninteresting, and Jennifer couldn't act (she hasn't even had an acting credit since 2001), and the character couldn't carry interesting stories. Please, lets move on.

The poster finds Kes a positive aspect of the show. Why not let them be positive in this positive thread?

I personally prefer Kes over Seven of Nine but that's because I grew tired of the Borg and the constant fawning by my teen male friends over Seven. Audience reaction soured me on an otherwise great character.

But, this is a thread for positivity. Let's be positive.

 

[Prax]

Watching Star Trek was totally not cool among my teen male friends.

I had to wait until adulthood to embrace my inner nerd. I had to wait until the nerds won the war.

 

[fireproof78]

Watching Star Trek was totally not cool among my teen make friends.

I had to wait until adulthood to embrace my inner nerd. I had to wait until the nerds won the war.

All my friends were nerds in my teen years. We were never cool.

 

[jaime]

Must have missed it

It was all part of that ‘nineties is the new sixties’ thing. Tons of pop videos with catsuited peeps, films too, and they were ‘going out’ items for people around the turn of the millennium. They were here anyway.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Outside of his character, Garrett Wang is one my favorite actors from the Trek franchise because he's bluntly honest about everything he feels about that show. He wasn't happy with a lot of things on the show. And pretty vocal about it too.

 

[at Quark's]

Somehow my mood always got better once I saw the end credits of that show. So those must have been really good!

OK, silly joking aside, what I liked about Voyager:

- Sense of family and growth. Contrary to the well known complaint, there was continuity and character development in the show, more so than in, e.g. TNG- (even though the series sometimes did suffer from reset button syndrome). The Season 7 characters are quite different from their season 1 counterparts. Janeway: from a hypermilitary but secretly uncertain figure to someone who is at ease with her captaincy, and even is some kind of 'mother' to the crew. Paris: from women chaser with a criminal record to dependable crew and family man. B'elanna: from a character who seemed to feel safest when isolating herself and in adversarial situations to a married woman who opened up to Tom. Neelix: from cynical scavenger to dependable team mate. And so on. More relaxed atmosphere than on the ENT-D where everyone was supposed to be (near-)perfect.
- Humor. The show didn't take itself too seriously at times, making episodes such as "live fast and prosper" possible, or some of the daydreaming scenes of the EMH.

I might add more to this when it comes to mind.

 

[Damian]

daydreaming scenes of the EMH

I still loved that scene when that guy from the Heirarchy (was their species ever actually named?) came to the realization that he was watching the Doctor's dreams and was not reality (after he told his boss all about it thinking it was real).

That look of "oh no, I'm totally f***ed" must be universal across species (and give the actor credit as well--even in all that make up he gave that look pretty well )

 

[fireproof78]

I still loved that scene when that guy from the Heirarchy (was their species ever actually named?) came to the realization that he was watching the Doctor's dreams and was not reality (after he told his boss all about it thinking it was real).

That look of "oh no, I'm totally f***ed" must be universal across species (and give the actor credit as well--even in all that make up he gave that look pretty well )

That is one of my favorite episodes. That reaction is priceless.

It was all part of that ‘nineties is the new sixties’ thing. Tons of pop videos with catsuited peeps, films too, and they were ‘going out’ items for people around the turn of the millennium. They were here anyway.

I vaguely recall Britney Spears in a video. But, I blocked out the rest to save my sanity.

 

[Lynx]

I've never seen a blog in my life where every thread is hijacked by the same few people saying the same things over and over.

I don't dislike Denise Crosby and Nicole DeBoer, I dislike Tasha Yar and Ezri Dax. I dislike them because they were they were weak, uninteresting, childlike characters.

Worf, interesting. What he brought to the ensemble, interesting. Klingon Empire back stories, interesting. Tasha Yar, not so interesting, by the same standard. An objective person would weigh in all the Worf story lines, and realize that there would be no way Tasha Yar could carry them.

And the Worf character filled out a pretty bland ensemble for DS9 too.

You say the same stuff over and over, and it is nothing but a big pile of wishful thinking.

Kes sucked. If she didn't, they would have kept her. You can argue this point 50 different ways till Sunday, but on Sunday, Kes still sucked, and they still got rid of her. She was a weak character, and the ensemble needed some juice. They needed a Worf character.

Seven, interesting. What she brought to the ensemble, interesting. Borg back stories, interesting. Kes, not so interesting, by the same standard. An objective person would weigh in all the Seven story lines, and realize that there would be no way Kes could carry them.

I'm sorry, but Jennifer Lien was not capable of "brilliance", at least with this character. "Warlord" is smack dab at the bottom of my list because of Lien and Kes. She wasn't believable in the role, and ruined it IMO. I knew it was just an attempt to do something with the Kes character, who was, at best a third tier supporting part.

Yet, you are completely obsessed by the God damned costume. I've told you before the tits and the tight costume would not have amounted to a hill of beans if the actress couldn't act, and the character couldn't carry interesting story lines.

It makes no sense. Can we move on? Jennifer was let go because Kes was uninteresting, and Jennifer couldn't act (she hasn't even had an acting credit since 2001), and the character couldn't carry interesting stories. Please, lets move on.

Honestly, I don't care at all about your opinions and your hatred against certain characters. What does annoy me slightly is that this thread was supposed to be a "what was good with the series" thread while you are constantly throwing dirt on almost everything except your beloved Seven and maybe Worf.

There are at least three other threads going on about what was bad with Voyager where you can spew out your hatred to certain characters.

As for Worf, I think he was great in TNG but rather displaced in DS9 which already had great characters.

Seven was no Worf, more a sex symbol which Bernan and Braga wanted in to attract male teenage boys. They were lucky to get a good actress in Ryan but that's about all.

As for Lien, she was excellent as Kes and did a great job in "American History X". I won't go into what happened next but so far she was a very promising actress.

As for my "wishful thinking" which it isn't, rather a valuable opiniom, when someone throw dirt on things I like, then I defend my interests and I'm not the one to back down and my replies are often written in the same style as the one I'm debating with.