A few things to discuss about Kes

[Lynx]

Yes. But its ratings were low during its run. People didn't really start appreciating it until well after it ended.

But at least the ratings were stable and it did create a solid and loyal fanbase.

To quote a rock musician I once interviewed. "Better to have 200 loyal fans than 10 000 who abandons us for the next musical trend".

While I agree with you in general, remember that we're both playing Monday morning quarterback, and we don't have all the information. If the choices were "make TNG lite or get canceled", it's expected that they chose the option that got them a paycheck

That's right. Unfortunately the big hotshots only cared about ratings and money themselves, people with calculators instead of brains and wallets instead of souls. Such people have no feeling for the artistic or constructive, they only care about money and in the long run they lose because their greed gets in the way forconstructive thinking and it all leads up to a productthe fans will abandon.

It's the same in the music business. How many good bands and artists haven't been wasted because of greedy managers and stupid record companies who have tried to steer the bands and artists into something commercial and lightweight, thus alienating the real fans of the band's original music.

The best is when the hotshots simply leave the creative people to do what they want. That's why bands like Beatles and Rolling Stones where so big. They were left alone to do what they could do best and everyone won something because of that, the bands, the record company and the fans.

The only really repulsive element was how they treated women. And it could easily have been stated that there was a groundswell of females who were demanding more equitable treatment. Instead of having Ishka change everything single-handedly, make her and Pel two voices in an increasingly loud chorus, onr the male establishment could no longer ignore. Not revolution, not transformation, but evolution.

A good suggestion. In the long run, greedy females would have been accepted in the Ferengi society as much as greedy males and it wouldn't have affected foundations of the Ferengi society that much.

But as for the Ferengi, I've always assumed that Rom wasn't the right leader for them. He was a tecnician, not a politician.

In the long run, he would be too weak and would sooner or later be overthrown by someone ruthless type, like Brunt who would restore most of the old Ferengi ways of life.

I agree totally. Where we disagree is that I don't believe sacrificing a character for the good of the story is necessarily a waste.

It might depend a lot of the circumstances and which character who is wasted.

It wouldn't even be that hard. Trying to write a Janeway story would be crazy difficult because many of her actions contradict many others, so writing a proper character dossier would be hard. Harry, with far fewer contradicting actions, is easier to get a handle on.

I agree on that.

I did the same. The main cast member I envisioned was Weyoun 9. And, because I sometimes will save a character I like same way you will, he was handled by Sloan 2.

Great idea! Sloan was another character which they wasted for no reason or benefit at all.
What they should have done is to come up with a Section 31 series shortly after Voyager with Sloan as main character or one of the main characters.

Nice.

Everyone likes The Vortas!

Problem is, it was the people who were supposed to be doing the firing who were messing things up. Like Rick "let's just make another Dax" Berman and Brannon "someone gotta be duh ensign" Braga.

When the blind leadeth the blind, get out of their way!

That's the main problem with it all. berman and Braga wouldn't have solved the problem because they were the problem.

And when those who could have dumped Berman and Braga were the same greedy calculators as I described in a comment above, the road to destruction was set.

Fortunately, in a weird chain of events DS9 did flourish because those in charge of that show were left to do what they wanted to do while the greedy guys were keepping their eyes on TNG and what would supposed to be "the next TNG" while the constructive people who ran DS9 could be creative and do what they were good at, at least most of the time.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

What they should have done is to come up with a Section 31 series shortly after Voyager with Sloan as main character or one of the main characters.

It's bizarre that you often refer to the new trek shows as 'doom and gloom', but then advocate for a series about a rogue secret agency that operated outside of federation law and attempted genocide.

 

[Oddish]

To quote a rock musician I once interviewed. "Better to have 200 loyal fans than 10 000 who abandons us for the next musical trend".

I like that musician's attitude.

That's right. Unfortunately the big hotshots only cared about ratings and money themselves, people with calculators instead of brains and wallets instead of souls. Such people have no feeling for the artistic or constructive, they only care about money and in the long run they lose because their greed gets in the way forconstructive thinking and it all leads up to a productthe fans will abandon.

It's not always greedy hotshots. Sometimes, it's people who just want to keep themselves and their people employed. And to do that, they have to give the people what they want.

It's the same in the music business. How many good bands and artists haven't been wasted because of greedy managers and stupid record companies who have tried to steer the bands and artists into something commercial and lightweight, thus alienating the real fans of the band's original music.

It's been going on for a long time. Elvis Presley was victim of such a manager.

A good suggestion. In the long run, greedy females would have been accepted in the Ferengi society as much as greedy males and it wouldn't have affected foundations of the Ferengi society that much.

The whole "naked and submissive women" business had its birth in a practically throwaway line in TNG S1.

But as for the Ferengi, I've always assumed that Rom wasn't the right leader for them. He was a tecnician, not a politician.

In the long run, he would be too weak and would sooner or later be overthrown by someone ruthless type, like Brunt who would restore most of the old Ferengi ways of life.

Had the Nagus still been an autocrat, probably. Under the modified system, the Nagus might have been more of a figurehead.

It might depend a lot of the circumstances and which character who is wasted.

True. With characters in your own stories, whom no one else is going to use, you have free reign. With characters in a greater fandom, like Star Trek, you want to think before killing one off. Especially in a non-Trek fandom where people actually stay dead.

Great idea! Sloan was another character which they wasted for no reason or benefit at all.
What they should have done is to come up with a Section 31 series shortly after Voyager with Sloan as main character or one of the main characters.

It could scarcely have been worse than what they came up with.

Fortunately, in a weird chain of events DS9 did flourish because those in charge of that show were left to do what they wanted to do while the greedy guys were keepping their eyes on TNG and what would supposed to be "the next TNG" while the constructive people who ran DS9 could be creative and do what they were good at, at least most of the time.

Ironically, DS9 was the overlooked series, so it got to do what it wanted. And as you said, that worked out well for it. It had competent showrunners, and didn't need the powers that be sticking their nose in its business.

It's bizarre that you often refer to the new trek shows as 'doom and gloom', but then advocate for a series about a rogue secret agency that operated outside of federation law and attempted genocide.

Well, considering that the Dominion introduced itself through mass murder, created a race that was genetically designed to worship the founders and kill indiscriminately, tormented a planetary population with a horrific disease, and attempted a genocide of its own against the Cardassians... I'm not exactly shedding tears about S31 taking a potshot at them.

My version of S31 as recurring characters was a bit more comedic, largely because it featured S31 salvaging a Dominion cloning facility, so it created its own version of Weyoun.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Well, considering that the Dominion introduced itself through mass murder, created a race that was genetically designed to worship the founders and kill indiscriminately, tormented a planetary population with a horrific disease, and attempted a genocide of its own against the Cardassians... I'm not exactly shedding tears about S31 taking a potshot at them.

Sure, Jan. I'm sure if new trek was fine with genociding an enemy you would absolutely have a problem with it. But that isn't the point, i am trying to make. It's hypocritical to call new trek 'doom and gloom' and claim it isn't star trek while advocating for a potential series about an organisation that went against everything the Federation stood for.

 

[Oddish]

The way I see it, the Federation is like a vast organism, and Section 31 is like its digestive terminus. It's nasty and gross and no one likes to talk about it... but it serves an essential purpose.

 

[Ragitsu]

I know the purpose it serves and it is neither essential nor interesting.

 

[Lynx]

It's bizarre that you often refer to the new trek shows as 'doom and gloom', but then advocate for a series about a rogue secret agency that operated outside of federation law and attempted genocide.

But it don't have to be that way.
It could be something more like NCIS.

And I suppose that you've never seen a James Bond movie.

And even with the worst possible scenario, it still wouldn't be so much "doom and gloom" as DSC, PIC and the NuTrek movies with its overall gloomy scenarios, long torture scenes and depressive stories where whole planets are been blown to pieces, not to mention planets who are and have been very important för Star Trek as such

I like that musician's attitude.

Yes! He was right!

It's not always greedy hotshots. Sometimes, it's people who just want to keep themselves and their people employed. And to do that, they have to give the people what they want.

And then they end up giving people what they don't want!

It's been going on for a long time. Elvis Presley was victim of such a manager.

Yes indeed. And not the only one.

The whole "naked and submissive women" business had its birth in a practically throwaway line in TNG S1.

That's correct.

Had the Nagus still been an autocrat, probably. Under the modified system, the Nagus might have been more of a figurehead.

But someone like Brunt might try to change that too.

True. With characters in your own stories, whom no one else is going to use, you have free reign. With characters in a greater fandom, like Star Trek, you want to think before killing one off. Especially in a non-Trek fandom where people actually stay dead.

That's right.

It could scarcely have been worse than what they came up with.

No, it could actually have been interesting.

Ironically, DS9 was the overlooked series, so it got to do what it wanted. And as you said, that worked out well for it. It had competent showrunners, and didn't need the powers that be sticking their nose in its business.

Those in charge of DS9 were probably happy about that nbecause they got the opportunity to create something good and interesting.

Well, considering that the Dominion introduced itself through mass murder, created a race that was genetically designed to worship the founders and kill indiscriminately, tormented a planetary population with a horrific disease, and attempted a genocide of its own against the Cardassians... I'm not exactly shedding tears about S31 taking a potshot at them.

My version of S31 as recurring characters was a bit more comedic, largely because it featured S31 salvaging a Dominion cloning facility, so it created its own version of Weyoun.

I can agree on that.

It's also a reason why I find the scenario in In The Pale Moonlight realistic and acceptable. If I had been in charge of a country or a planet which was threatened by a ruthless and genocidial enemy, i would have done exactly what Sisko did in that episode.

You just have to look at what happened to Cardassia at the end of the war and what happened to the people on the planet in the Teplan system in the episode The Quickening to see what could have happened to the Federation planets if the Dominion had won.

Preventing that was necessary, even if the methods to do so weren't so nice.

The way I see it, the Federation is like a vast organism, and Section 31 is like its digestive terminus. It's nasty and gross and no one likes to talk about it... but it serves an essential purpose.

Even free and democratic societies have intelligence organizations whose methods aren't always using nice or even legal methods.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

It could be something more like NCIS.

This might be one of the most ludicrous and hypocritical comments I have ever read on the BBS. I'm sure a series about an agency that is willing to commit GENOCIDE and regularly conducts assassinations and tortures people will be exactly like NCIS. I'm sure they'll have some wacky goth girl and a guy named ducky as well.

Like what planet are you on? Do you actually know what genocide is?

 

[Oddish]

And then they end up giving people what they don't want!

Sad but true. Stagnant characters, the elimination of several original premises, and overuse of the Big Red Reset Button plagued Voyager throughout. Though one does wonder what the show's ratings would have been like if they capitalized on its potential... is a mediocre show that gets renewed better than a great one they cancel?

You just have to look at what happened to Cardassia at the end of the war and what happened to the people on the planet in the Teplan system in the episode The Quickening to see what could have happened to the Federation planets if the Dominion had won.

Preventing that was necessary, even if the methods to do so weren't so nice.

Yes. Remember also that the female founder stated at one point that once the Dominion defeated the Federation, everyone on Earth would have to be exterminated.

Those in charge of DS9 were probably happy about that nbecause they got the opportunity to create something good and interesting.

Berman and Braga probably thought they had left the B-team on DS9 and moved their best writers to Voyager. The truth was very different.

Like what planet are you on? Do you actually know what genocide is?

The Founders were the brain of the Dominion. Destroy the brain, and the body dies. And sadly, because of the nature of the Great Link, they couldn't simply kill off the specific Founders who were running the war. So while S31's actions were horrific, the alternative was arguably far worse.

Harry Truman didn't nuke Hiroshima because he wanted to kill civilians. He did it because the alternative (Operation Downfall) would have made Hiroshima look like an ice cream party.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Sad but true. Stagnant characters, the elimination of several original premises, and overuse of the Big Red Reset Button plagued Voyager throughout. Though one does wonder what the show's ratings would have been like if they capitalized on its potential... is a mediocre show that gets renewed better than a great one they cancel?



Yes. Remember also that the female founder stated at one point that once the Dominion defeated the Federation, everyone on Earth would have to be exterminated.



Berman and Braga probably thought they had left the B-team on DS9 and moved their best writers to Voyager. The truth was very different.



The Founders were the brain of the Dominion. Destroy the brain, and the body dies. And sadly, because of the nature of the Great Link, they couldn't simply kill off the specific Founders who were running the war. So while S31's actions were horrific, the alternative was arguably far worse.

Harry Truman didn't nuke Hiroshima because he wanted to kill civilians. He did it because the alternative (Operation Downfall) would have made Hiroshima look like an ice cream party.

Picard was against genocide (against the Borg) and so was Sisko. You would not be ok with it, if a new trek show was doing the same plot point, let's not even pretend that you would be. Let's not kid ourselves, Harry Truman absolutely did not care about killing Japanese civilians, he only cared about saving the lives of allied troops and forcing the Japanese to surrender. The ends will never justify the means if you have to behave like your enemy or worse than them to win.

 

[Oddish]

Picard was against genocide (against the Borg) and so was Sisko. You would not be ok with it, if a new trek show was doing the same plot point, let's not even pretend that you would be.

I would not have done what Picard did, in "I Borg" or "Insurrection". I would have held my nose, gritted my teeth, and accepted that sometimes the needs of the many really do outweigh the needs of the few.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I would not have done what Picard did, in "I Borg" or "Insurrection". I would have held my nose, gritted my teeth, and accepted that sometimes the needs of the many really do outweigh the needs of the few.

Cool so you have zero right to be complaining about how 'dark' new trek is when you're perfectly fine with Federation committing genocide in franchise entries you approve of. If you can't see how hypocritical and morally bankrupt that is, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Oddish]

I think you have me confused with someone else. I'm fond of several of the nu Trek shows.

 

[Lynx]

This might be one of the most ludicrous and hypocritical comments I have ever read on the BBS. I'm sure a series about an agency that is willing to commit GENOCIDE and regularly conducts assassinations and tortures people will be exactly like NCIS. I'm sure they'll have some wacky goth girl and a guy named ducky as well.

Like what planet are you on? Do you actually know what genocide is?

You know, I don't find it interesting and even constructive to discuss this with you since you are very rude, comes up with personal attacks and insults and obviously are out to provoke a conflict. if you could stay out of personal attacks and insults, theis debate could have been much more constructive.

The sad thing is that you, in some sort of defense of recent series and movies are drawing the wrong conclusions.

You find a Section 31 series immoral or whatsoever and call me a hypocrite because I could find such as series interesting, or could have been interesting if it had been made in the early 2000s. But you are not complaining about the current attempt to come up with such a series which I guess will be a lot more dark and gloomy that what I suggested in y previous post.

And you are not complaining about long sleazy torture scenes in PIC or the destruction of whole planets in the same series and the NuTrek movies. Now that destruction of whole planets is what I call genocide on a high scale as "entertainment"!

And meaningless destruction seen from a production point of view.

And as I wrote before, a series about an intelligence organization don't have to be about genocide or promote genocide as a solution. It could be like NCIS, Mission Impossible or something similar.

Sad but true. Stagnant characters, the elimination of several original premises, and overuse of the Big Red Reset Button plagued Voyager throughout. Though one does wonder what the show's ratings would have been like if they capitalized on its potential... is a mediocre show that gets renewed better than a great one they cancel?

Maybe it could have been as interesting as DS9 and got a core of loyal fans.

Yes. Remember also that the female founder stated at one point that once the Dominion defeated the Federation, everyone on Earth would have to be exterminated.

Yes, and that's why I sympathize with Sisko's actions in In The Pale Moonlight and also have some understanding for Garak's actions against the Founders and even Sloan's schemings, even if what Garak and Sloan planned was horrible.

They were actually facing amore than ruthless and genocidial enemy and were forced to extreme measures against it.

Berman and Braga probably thought they had left the B-team on DS9 and moved their best writers to Voyager. The truth was very different.

Yes, what happened was that Berman and Braga had full control over VOY in which they managed to turn the show from something with an interesting premise and great characters turned into a weak TNG copy with three main characters and the rest as extras while the DS9 producers and writers were free to come up with great stories and character develoment.

The Founders were the brain of the Dominion. Destroy the brain, and the body dies. And sadly, because of the nature of the Great Link, they couldn't simply kill off the specific Founders who were running the war. So while S31's actions were horrific, the alternative was arguably far worse.

I have to agree on that.

Harry Truman didn't nuke Hiroshima because he wanted to kill civilians. He did it because the alternative (Operation Downfall) would have made Hiroshima look like an ice cream party.

That is actually true. The bombing of Hirooshima and Nagasaki were horrible but an invasion of Japan wouuld have costed much more lives.

Note also that the allies were no saints. They were fighting evil and in order to win that struggle, they had to be more than evil in some places.

In fact, they actually did some bad things. One of the worst was to sell out Eastern Europe to Stalin which created a 45-year nightmare in those countries.

I think you have me confused with someone else. I'm fond of several of the nu Trek shows.

Good for you. Unfortunately I'm not.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

You know, I don't find it interesting and even constructive to discuss this with you since you are very rude, comes up with personal attacks and insults and obviously are out to provoke a conflict. if you could stay out of personal attacks and insults, theis debate could have been much more constructive.

The sad thing is that you, in some sort of defense of recent series and movies are drawing the wrong conclusions.

You find a Section 31 series immoral or whatsoever and call me a hypocrite because I could find such as series interesting, or could have been interesting if it had been made in the early 2000s. But you are not complaining about the current attempt to come up with such a series which I guess will be a lot more dark and gloomy that what I suggested in y previous post.

And you are not complaining about long sleazy torture scenes in PIC or the destruction of whole planets in the same series and the NuTrek movies. Now that destruction of whole planets is what I call genocide on a high scale as "entertainment"!

And meaningless destruction seen from a production point of view.

And as I wrote before, a series about an intelligence organization don't have to be about genocide or promote genocide as a solution. It could be like NCIS, Mission Impossible or something similar.


Maybe it could have been as interesting as DS9 and got a core of loyal fans.


Yes, and that's why I sympathize with Sisko's actions in In The Pale Moonlight and also have some understanding for Garak's actions against the Founders and even Sloan's schemings, even if what Garak and Sloan planned was horrible.

They were actually facing amore than ruthless and genocidial enemy and were forced to extreme measures against it.


Yes, what happened was that Berman and Braga had full control over VOY in which they managed to turn the show from something with an interesting premise and great characters turned into a weak TNG copy with three main characters and the rest as extras while the DS9 producers and writers were free to come up with great stories and character develoment.


I have to agree on that.


That is actually true. The bombing of Hirooshima and Nagasaki were horrible but an invasion of Japan wouuld have costed much more lives.

Note also that the allies were no saints. They were fighting evil and in order to win that struggle, they had to be more than evil in some places.

In fact, they actually did some bad things. One of the worst was to sell out Eastern Europe to Stalin which created a 45-year nightmare in those countries.


Good for you. Unfortunately I'm not.

You don't know what you are talking about because you haven't actually bothered to watch any of new trek. And yes it is hypocritical to perfectly fine with 'doom and gloom' in series that you approve of but then criticise other franchise offerings for apparently doing the same thing. End of story.

 

[Lynx]

You don't know what you are talking about because you haven't actually bothered to watch any of new trek. And yes it is hypocritical to perfectly fine with 'doom and gloom' in series that you approve of but then criticise other franchise offerings for apparently doing the same thing. End of story.

I know exactly what I'm talking about since I've actually watched all three NuTrek movies, four episodes of ENT, five episodes of DSC, a season of PIC plus some of the SNW episodes and it was more "doom and gloom" overall there than in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY were there were only certain episodes which could be described as dark and gloomy.

Not to mention that I didn't like the storytelling and many of the characters and actors in those newer productions either. End of discussion.

 

[Akiraprise]

End of story

End of discussion.

Cool. You've both said your piece to each other. Time to move on. To what I am not sure, this thread is all over the place, but it is supposed to be about Kes in some fashion not a general discussion on the state of modern Trek.

 

[Oddish]

Point made, @Akiraprise . I won't respond any further to that line of discussion.

Maybe it could have been as interesting as DS9 and got a core of loyal fans.

There's no way to know. But with such a strong cast, there was certainly potential.

Yes, what happened was that Berman and Braga had full control over VOY in which they managed to turn the show from something with an interesting premise and great characters turned into a weak TNG copy with three main characters and the rest as extras while the DS9 producers and writers were free to come up with great stories and character develoment.

I still wonder at how the man who knew that Patrick Stewart was the perfect person to helm TNG could run Voyager into the ground so efficiently.

Unfortunately I'm not.

Have you seen all of the new shows? A lot of them are similar to the Berman era. And PRO is practically a VOY sequel.

 

[Lynx]

There's no way to know. But with such a strong cast, there was certainly potential.

It really was. The series had a great premise and a great cast. Not to mention that Caretaker was the best of the pilot episodes, acutally better than Encounter At Farpoint and Emissary (TOS had no real pilot episode if we don't count The Cage). Nothing wrong with those pilot episoded but Caretaker was the best.

I still wonder at how the man who knew that Patrick Stewart was the perfect person to helm TNG could run Voyager into the ground so efficiently.

I've often wondered that too.

I always give credit to Berman and Braga for TNG which was a good show. But in some way they failed with Voyager. Maybe the concept for the show was wrong, maybe they were burned out and had lost inspiration and maybe they had become big-headed after the success of TNG. In fact, they didn't to any good with ENT either.

Have you seen all of the new shows? A lot of them are similar to the Berman era. And PRO is practically a VOY sequel.

I've seen the NuTrek movies, the first five episodes of DSC, the first season of PIC and a couple of SNW episodes. But I didn't like any of them.

As for the rest, it's a matter of money since all of them show up on streaming channels now and I have some bad experiences with streaming.

I won't comment as much about PRO since I've seen very little of it. But I'm not sure if the cartoon concept is exactly what I'm looking for, not to mention that they seem to be pinned down by certain dead weight from previous series, like continuing with that Traveler mumbo-jumbo for Wesley Crusher.

As for other possible series, they must be much better than DSC and PIC if I will waste some money on them.