The positive Voyager thread: What was good with the series?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Lynx, Aug 11, 2019.

  1. Akiraprise

    Akiraprise Vice Admiral Moderator

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    Another positive...An actual relationship arc between Paris and Torres that was flushed out over several seasons. This TNG-lite show took a few cues from DS9. ;)

    Positives for me were the characters, the "family" attitude of the crew as the seasons went on, the design of Voyager itself and the sets which still look good today, Seven's introduction and her interaction with Naomi Wildman, and the strong female characters in general. I still recall when I first watched Cullah slapping Janeway in the face and thinking "Wow, that's big. She's going to kill you in as Starfleet a way as possible." :lol:
     
  2. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    Just saying, this doesn't sound particularly positive to me. It sounds like the same old rhetoric that's been said over and over and over. So, allow me.

    Kes was a terrible character. She brought nothing to the ensemble, she brought nothing to the show. Episodes that feature her are among my least favorites. Part of the problem is she looks like a little elfin boy, and the other problem is, Jennifer Lein can't act. Or, at least she brought nothing to that character.

    Harry was boring because the "naive young ensign" shtick got tiresome quickly, and that's all the character ever was. And, Garett Wang wasn't a good choice to play that type of character, anyway. He appeared "too old and experienced" from the first episode. That being said, the character at least had a place in the ensemble.

    What was good in the show?

    First, they realized that they needed a strong, "mysterious" character to add some manageable tension and conflict, that wouldn't get old. And they added Seven. Seven was the "Spock" or "Data" character. She was intelligent and conflicted with her own self as they both were. Just like Spock and Data, there was plenty of room for her to conquer that inner conflict, and grow as a person. It was the absolute right thing to do. There is no way Kes could have brought this to that show.

    Second, this was the only incarnation of Star Trek that stayed close to the spirit of TOS. TNG was a cruise ship in space, complete with it's own armchair psychologist. DS9 certainly didn't. Janeway was a strong captain that was not afraid to be the captain. They also boldly went where no man had gone before.

    Third, Robert Picardo was perfectly cast. My favorite ST doctor.

    I'm tired of hearing how boring Harry was or Tom, or Chakotay was. Because I think people forget that on TOS, Chekov was boring, Sulu was boring, Nurse Chapel was boring, Scotty was boring, and the entire show was Kirk and Spock with a dash of McCoy, who was somewhat boring too. I certainly think Tom and Harry were better characters than Chekov and Sulu. On TNG The doctor was so boring they tried to get rid of her, some nutcase usenet fans hated Wesley Crusher so bad they pretty much drove the character off the show and hated on the actor to the point of nervous breakdown. Levar Burton was OK as long as he didn't have to try to act beyond the 5 or 6 lines he repeated every episode, and please explain Tasha Yar to me. Thank God for Worf. Half of the DS9 ensemble is just unlikable, forget boring. Again, thank God for Worf.

    The point is, we see what we like with rose colored glasses, and hate on the rest. But it's virtually all the same. It really is. Except maybe Enterprise. They tried to do something different there.
     
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  3. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ent is proof that different doesn't always mean good, never mind better.
     
  4. Farscape One

    Farscape One Commodore Commodore

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    I always enjoyed VOYAGER, even though it ranks lower to me among the first 5 series... 6, counting The Animated Series.

    The show had a number of flaws, but one of the things I always respected and loved about VOYAGER was the number of really high concept ideas that were used... a living nebula ("THE CLOUD"), a living twisting phenomenon ("TWISTED"), a species that ages in reverse ("INNOCENCE"), a giant virus ("MACROCOSM"), living your life backwards ("BEFORE AND AFTER"), using time itself as a weapon ("YEAR OF HELL"), a black market of violent thoughts ("RANDOM THOUGHTS"), a body swapper ("VIS A VIS"), an ocean in space ("THIRTY DAYS"), Chaotic Space ("THE FIGHT"), an episode where we, the audience, are the only ones who get to know a ship of doppelgangers ("COURSE: OBLIVION"), a sentient bomb ("WARHEAD"), a planet we see evolve for centuries in just hours ("BLINK OF AN EYE"), a monument that makes people relive a massacre ("MEMORIAL"), a species that procreates by altering the dead of others ("ASHES TO ASHES"), a unique way to do a clip show ("SHATTERED").

    While some of these episodes were poorly executed, I give them credit for trying them out. It did make the Delta Quadrant feel like a strange place... and as past Janeway put it, a death trap.
     
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  5. Kilana2

    Kilana2 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Seska. Even though she was a baddie I was sad when she was gone and killed off...
     
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  6. cosmic mouse

    cosmic mouse Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Totally agree on the characters, Lynx... and thanks for the note of positivity in the Realm of Negative Critique, lol.;)
    VOY's characters, largely, are among the best in Trek imho... all the characters to me are believable and they all interact really well in a pretty genuine manner. Their actions and reactions are, for the most part, pretty identifiable and relatable to the average person.
    It's also an easy series to watch... and exactly what I appreciate in Star Trek since it's all rather "light" entertainment on the grand scale. But the characters are the best and that's what keeps me coming back to rewatch episodes.
     
  7. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    For as much bashing as the Kazon get, Seska's arc with Marje Callah was very enjoyable to me. She made the Kazon interesting, as best as she could anyway.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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  8. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I like that they came up with brand new ideas often in the episodes, even if those ideas were not always exploited properly.
     
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  9. Ghost

    Ghost Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, to me the Delta Quadrant felt more exotic than what we got to see from the Alpha and Beta Quadrant.
    Voyager's crew were at least most of the time discovering new things when not dealing with recurring foes or elements from the Alpha and Beta Quadrant.
     
  10. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    OMG!!! Fleshed out not flushed. LOL!!! I agree very true, their relationship came out of the blue like Chakotay and Seven's relationship; it needed some time and moments to get it going, but I never saw Torres and Paris as a couple and I didn't see him with Kes either and in the early seasons it seemed the producers were toying with that idea. Paris may have been a renegade but he was Starfleet, I doubt the Torres I know would be with a man like Paris. She seemed like a character would loved and appreciated a man who had man characteristics and not a manchild. You know, the kind of big kid who like to play VR videogames --Flash Gordon fantasies-- and like to risk his health to do road, or space, racing and stuff for a guy like Paris who was pushing 40 years old.
     
  11. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Kazons were definitely exotic!
     
  12. Brennyren

    Brennyren Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I liked the premise (which is why I would have liked to see it exploited more!). The opening credits, and the intro theme, were gorgeous. Robert Beltran and Robbie McNeill were pretty easy on the eyes, though I liked Beltran better with the early-seasons military buzz and the touch of gray. Props to Bob Picardo for the depth and shading he gave his character, and to Jeri Ryan for the layers she gave to Seven. And I will give Kate Mulgrew this all day long: she was always in there pitching. She just never quit. I don't think anybody could have done better than Kate, with what she was given to work with.

    The Kazons were blue-light special Klingons with perpetually bad hair days.
     
  13. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Borg didn't think the Kazons were worth assimilating, they didn't feel this way about the Klingons.
     
  14. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think it had some of the best light comedy in Trek: one-liners, snark, looks, physical acting. Most the cast were pretty adept - Picardo, Phillips and McNeill especially - but Mulgrew, Ryan, Russ and Dawson all had lovely moments. I'd rank it above DS9, TOS, TNG and ENT in that comic order.
     
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  15. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Doctor and Seven were strong characters were interesting, pretty well-paced growth.
     
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  16. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would go that far as to rank it above DS9 and TOS but you definitely have a point about ENT. TNG is pretty much on the same level.
     
  17. Cutie McWhiskers

    Cutie McWhiskers Commodore Commodore

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    The premise had much potential

    Seven and Janeway made the best double act discussing human nature.

    Even with its short-lived premise before it became "TNG-Lite", a handful of episodes like "Worst Case Scenario" still give glimpses of the original dystopian premise, imperfectly or not, while still showing the other Trekkian goal of people working together.

    The motley crew's coming together was not a bad road to take despite the dystopian allure of the original premise.

    Janeway embodied the best attributes of Kirk and Picard.

    Neelix is underrated.

    New starship designs.

    Picardo played the EMH with so much sincerity that even I managed to swallow the "holograph rights" shtick, even though the non-sentient ship created so much sentience it didn't know what to go do with it :razz::guffaw:

    Exploring the Borg (at least for seasons 3 and 4), with "Hope and Fear" being a glimmer of even more potential.

    Best starship design ever with the USS Prometheus. A shame that episode didn't cross-reference DS9 at the time, but DS9 had the Dominion and didn't have enough room with Romulan subterfuge. Not when Sisko was using subterfuge at the Romulans.

    The best episodes also had characters emoting the most and/or acting slightly out of character for a unique plot opportunity (Year of Hell, Timeless, Living Witness)

    It's the one show that could do shipping, though STEPhon IT is right in that Torres/Chakotay would have been... better. Still, they all have sex lives in one form or another. Any soap opera or sitcom can display that and it's not really a spectator sport unless one is Arnold J Rimmer and not by choice.
     
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  18. Geetha Stachowiak

    Geetha Stachowiak Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I loved the fact they had a female captain, a female chief engineer, and a Borg crew member. Not to mention, great characters like the doctor, Ceska (hilarious interaction with Culluh), the Kazon idiots and Suder. It was all a bit off tangent, which I found refreshing. Chuckles wasn't bad either.
     
  19. Orange Crusher

    Orange Crusher Ensign Red Shirt

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    Why does everyone have to "slut shame" this character for how she dresses (done in the name of feminism)?

    You're saying all female Trek characters should dress in military fatigues or in other traditionally conservative ways?

    Some females enjoy dressing in a more sexualized way at a certain point in their lives or their whole lives through. Others are more conservative. Why is one way wrong and the other right? Hasn't anyone here ever been to a party, club, or a bar before?

    No one ever complains when an outfit shows off a male actors physique. All male actors today are super muscular and obviously worked a long time to look like that. It's not natural to look like that but nobody complains, nor should they. Women/gay men like to look at good looking men with great bodies. But it's wrong for female characters to dress in a way that flatters their figures.

    People love to use the word "objectify", but isn't that the whole point of film? We objectify men, violence, cars, landscapes, pets, starships, buildings, etc. We try to add character, narrative, ethics and philosopy to these images but we're still objectifying.

    The "sexualized" outfits worked for this character. No, not all females would express their sexuality in this way, but some obviously do.

    Clearly, many fans of the Berman era shows and movies, take Trek way too seriously. But these shows took themselves too seriously and eventually that turned off general audiences. That's how we wound up with Seven of Nine in the first place. She was alluringly exotic. Her looks and character brought attention to a show that was struggling. Berman Trek fans always brag about how intelligent his shows were, but political, militaristic science fiction stories only have so much appeal to general audiences.

    There is a demand for sexuality in film/television by the general public. Gene understood that, but some here have obviously never seen TOS.

    Jeri Ryan was not the victim of a sex crime by being talked into dressing in that costume. Nor does it necessarily represent who she really is. It was a character. She was being a professional actress.

    That's my long winded way of expressing what I feel was a positive aspect of the show. SON's sexuality.

    However, I liked Kes better anyway. But fans hated her for other reasons.

    I don't come here to make political statements. I am just responding to others socio-political criticisms and not singling anyone out.
     
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  20. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    Enterprise was a great show. Again, the same old stale rhetoric repeated over and over and over. Say it enough, maybe someone will believe it. You confuse "Not what I wanted, the way I wanted it" with "not good". The only thing I didn't care for in this show was the theme song. it wasn't what I wanted the way I wanted it, either, thank heaven. I like to dig for the treasure, I'm not interested in having it neatly packaged and dumped in my lap.