The Outcast

[suarezguy]

I think most of the makers and fans of Trek describe the shows as optimistic, idealistic or reformist rather than progressive in the sense of advancing a concrete ideology, with TNG the one most accused of being overly pushy for left ideology.

I thought "The Outcast" was a good episode, both blatant/preachy and yet safe (although not that much more, if at all, than the Kirk/Uhura kiss being mind-controlled) but I don't mind a social message being somewhat blatant and I thought both the romance and later the outrage against the repression were well-developed.

And it's not like they ever displayed openly anti-gay behavior on the show either, not even on TOS.

There was a comment by Sisko in "Dax" that Curzon was interested in women and Jadzia was different, insinuating that she wasn't and couldn't be because she was a woman, that's insensitive (especially in today's context) but pretty mildly so.

 

[borgboy]

Couldn't Sisko saying Jadzia was "different" just be because Jadzia was heterosexual, or at least Sisko thought she was. I don't remember exactly what was said, but I didn't take offense at it, and if it were even slightly homophobic, I'd be quick to be offended.
I suppose it could be seen as heterosexist maybe.

 

[Orphalesion]

There was a comment by Sisko in "Dax" that Curzon was interested in women and Jadzia was different, insinuating that she wasn't and couldn't be because she was a woman, that's insensitive (especially in today's context) but pretty mildly so.

Huh, did not know that, I'm only recently re-watching Ds9 for the first time since I was a tween and my interest tends to go down whenever Jadzia is focused on. Though I'm pretty surprised my boyfriend didn't catch it either.

But yeah, Jadzia was heterosexual, perhaps that was meant. Do you have the episode and/or exact quote.

 

[borgboy]

There is a hint or two that Jadzia may be bi. Besides the obvious episode with Dax's former wife - that's very debatable if Jadzia was really bi or if it was all about the symbiotes. Worf also is jealous of Vanessa Williams and seriously thinks Jadzia might cheat on him with her. So Worf thinks Jadzia's bisexual anyways.

 

[suarezguy]

Do you have the episode and/or exact quote.

It's from the episode "Dax"

KIRA: Tell us a little about Curzon Dax, Commander.
SISKO: He probably wasn't the ideal Trill. He drank a little too much. He could be more interested in women than maybe he should've been.
KIRA: I thought he was your friend.
SISKO: I'm simply pointing out that he was not at all like the young woman in this courtroom.

It's subtle and not intended to be offensive but the way he emphasizes "not at all" and says woman and looks in her direction, emphasizing her appearance, it suggests he felt there now couldn't still be attraction. Of course, Sisko could be wrong, especially with the episode being from season 1.

 

[Orphalesion]

It's from the episode "Dax"

KIRA: Tell us a little about Curzon Dax, Commander.
SISKO: He probably wasn't the ideal Trill. He drank a little too much. He could be more interested in women than maybe he should've been.
KIRA: I thought he was your friend.
SISKO: I'm simply pointing out that he was not at all like the young woman in this courtroom.

It's subtle and not intended to be offensive but the way he emphasizes "not at all" and says woman and looks in her direction, emphasizing her appearance, it suggests he felt there now couldn't still be attraction. Of course, Sisko could be wrong, especially with the episode being from season 1.

Oh I remember that one. However I didn't interpret that like that at all. Note that he says "more interested in women than maybe he should have been" so to me he implied Curzon was a womanizer and hedonist while Jadzia certainly doesn't strike me like someone who gives it away easily. In contrary she seems to enjoy playing "hard to get".

 

[kirkfan]

Do you have the episode and/or exact quote.

It's from the episode "Dax"

KIRA: Tell us a little about Curzon Dax, Commander.
SISKO: He probably wasn't the ideal Trill. He drank a little too much. He could be more interested in women than maybe he should've been.
KIRA: I thought he was your friend.
SISKO: I'm simply pointing out that he was not at all like the young woman in this courtroom.

It's subtle and not intended to be offensive but the way he emphasizes "not at all" and says woman and looks in her direction, emphasizing her appearance, it suggests he felt there now couldn't still be attraction. Of course, Sisko could be wrong, especially with the episode being from season 1.

I didn't take it that way. I think he meant that Jadzia didn't change partners as often as Curzon did or that she wasn't obsessed with sexual encounters the way he was. I didn't take it as presuming which gender she preferred.

 

[borgboy]

Thanks for the dialogue reference.
I don't interpret that to have anything to do with sexual orientation, but to be about character and lifestyle. Curzon was a hedonist, a big drinker, a womanizer. Jadzia, regardless of her orientation, is nothing like that.
It is interesting to see how different people will interpret the same scene in different ways.
This reminds me of how there was speculation on screen by some characters that Sisko and Jadzia's relationship might develop romantically.

 

[T'Girl]

would not make sense to make Riker suddenly gay

Given that the character is female (regardless of the gender of the performer) how would that make Riker gay?

 

[borgboy]

would not make sense to make Riker suddenly gay

Given that the character is female (regardless of the gender of the performer) how would that make Riker gay?

I think he meant that if Soran had identified as male instead of female, which was never the plan.
There was the possibility of Soran being played by a male actor, but for the character to still identify as female, which is what Frakes wanted, and would've been more bold and cutting edge for the time - or now even.

 

[kirkfan]

I don't like Sisko's remark to Jake about Ezri:

When Jakes Says: "She's cute" (or something to that effect I am quoting from memory)

Sisko's answer is: "She's also three hundred years too old for you."


First, this applies to pretty much every living male except maybe if he's a trill and second what the hell is wrong with him!

Talk about prejudice and about one of his friends at that!


Sometimes they make him say the most outrageous things.

 

[kirkfan]

would not make sense to make Riker suddenly gay

Given that the character is female (regardless of the gender of the performer) how would that make Riker gay?

I think he meant that if Soran had identified as male instead of female, which was never the plan.
There was the possibility of Soran being played by a male actor, but for the character to still identify as female, which is what Frakes wanted, and would've been more bold and cutting edge for the time - or now even.

That's funny because in traditional Opera female roles were often played by males.

 

[Orphalesion]

Given that the character is female (regardless of the gender of the performer) how would that make Riker gay?

Now who doesn't get it?

I meant if the character had been male then it would have logically made Riker gay/bisexual.()

That's funny because in traditional Opera female roles were often played by males.

Don't forget the theater, where they also did not allow women on stage until much later.
And in later opera (once they actually allowed women on stage) younger male roles were often played by women to take advantage of the higher singing voices, the so called breeches-role (castrating people to make them sing higher had slowly faded out of fashion)

 

[kirkfan]

Given that the character is female (regardless of the gender of the performer) how would that make Riker gay?

Now who doesn't get it?

I meant if the character had been male then it would have logically made Riker gay/bisexual.()

That's funny because in traditional Opera female roles were often played by males.

Don't forget the theater, where they also did not allow women on stage until much later.
And in later opera (once they actually allowed women on stage) younger male roles were often played by women to take advantage of the higher singing voices, the so called breeches-role (castrating people to make them sing higher had slowly faded out of fashion)

People have discovered since that you can keep your high pitched singing voice by pure discipline and technique without undergoing mutilation. If only they had known that back then...

 

[borgboy]

I don't like Sisko's remark to Jake about Ezri:

When Jakes Says: "She's cute" (or something to that effect I am quoting from memory)

Sisko's answer is: "She's also three hundred years too old for you."


First, this applies to pretty much every living male except maybe if he's a trill and second what the hell is wrong with him!

Talk about prejudice and about one of his friends at that!


Sometimes they make him say the most outrageous things.

Trill identities can be confusing for us humans. Sure, Ezri herself is pretty young, but she has hundreds of years of experience. Jake was still pretty much a boy. If Jake were a mature adult, even 5 or 10 years, I don't think Sisko would have the same objections.

Also, Jadzia said that Sisko was like a son, or nephew, to her because of Curzon's paternal relationship with the younger Sisko. Curzon and Jadzia had both watched Jake grow up and was like family. I can't blame Sisko for being a little freaked out over the idea of Jake taking an interest in any Dax.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Stigma was a terrible episode. One of the many early Enterprise episodes that contributed to my quitting of it.

The showrunners didn't necessarily want to do an episode like that - the directive from the Viacom bean counters was that all UPN shows would do an AIDS allegory, and so ENT's writers were actually ordered to do it.

I agree that it wasn't handled well, though. "The Outcast" handled its allegory a lot better than "Stigma" did. IMHO, of course.

(I guess I still don't understand why it would have been important for a female character to be played by a male actor, but I'll accept T'Girl's rationale of it.)

 

[borgboy]

Using a male actor would've emphasized the alien race's androgyny. Having a male actor playing a female identified androgynous alien looks more androgynous than a female actor playing a female identified alien.

Also, the gay metaphor would work better to actually have two actors of the same sex playing the scene. What we got instead was a woman and a man playing a romance that was supposed to be gay metaphor. And it was metaphor, just not as gay as Frakes wanted.

 

[Mark 2000]

Leonard Crofoot would have done a good job in that role, too.

 

[kirkfan]

I don't like Sisko's remark to Jake about Ezri:

When Jakes Says: "She's cute" (or something to that effect I am quoting from memory)

Sisko's answer is: "She's also three hundred years too old for you."


First, this applies to pretty much every living male except maybe if he's a trill and second what the hell is wrong with him!

Talk about prejudice and about one of his friends at that!


Sometimes they make him say the most outrageous things.

Trill identities can be confusing for us humans. Sure, Ezri herself is pretty young, but she has hundreds of years of experience. Jake was still pretty much a boy. If Jake were a mature adult, even 5 or 10 years, I don't think Sisko would have the same objections.

Also, Jadzia said that Sisko was like a son, or nephew, to her because of Curzon's paternal relationship with the younger Sisko. Curzon and Jadzia had both watched Jake grow up and was like family. I can't blame Sisko for being a little freaked out over the idea of Jake taking an interest in any Dax.

By my calculations, Jake was about twenty one in season 7. If you're not a man when you're that age then you'll never be. Sisko has no right to treat Jake as if he was still a boy. He's old enough to date whomever he wants without Sisko imposing his stupid prejudiced views on him. If I were him I would have put the moves on Ezri just to show Sisko what I thought of his idiotic advice.

 

[borgboy]

I see Sisko's warning being as much about it being Dax, someone who was like a father to him, as much as it was about age.