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THE ORVILLE, S2 E12: "SANCTUARY"

Cultural relativism only means that different isn't "necessarily" evil.

Fixing convictions that seem wrong is a slippery slope, because that's all the Christians want to do to gays.
 
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That's how I read the character as well. A lot of people do hate him, but I don't. It's difficult to overcome ways that are so old. They have to keep trying with him.
Pragmatically, I've come to dread Klyden's involvement in any plot after his attempted divorce and especially after "Deflectors". He's capable of nearly anything, acts without regard to the consequences for himself, Bortus, or the crew, and generally refuses to acknowledge these flaws. By the end of "Sanctuary" the Union peace is sitting on a razor's edge, and I don't doubt Klyden will be the one to give it that last shove when the time comes.

Cultural relativism only means that different isn't "necessarily" evil.

Fixing convictions that seem wrong is a slippery slope, because that's all the Christians want to do to gays.
It's a great point, and if there's one flaw in the show right now when it comes to this ongoing plot it's that we don't explicitly know what the Union's stance on these issues are. We can surmise a good deal from Mercer and the human crew, but while the Union seems to be fairly tolerant of subjective belief systems and traditions, it's obvious that they do have some objective rules for what constitutes acceptable behavior in the realm of sapient rights. We just don't know what they are and what systems are in place to guarantee them or enforce them. We got a glimpse of some of the civilian governance in "Sanctuary", but there's a lot of room for interpretation still. The Union, or at least Mercer and Company, are aware of the slippery slope you mention; it was addressed somewhat (and a bit shoddily) all the way back in "About A Girl", IIRC. That's what leads me to wonder what the objective rules are for the Union, because that's the only measuring stick we can use that doesn't invoke that slippery slope, and presumably all members of the Union have agreed to that structure.
 
They promised not to stab each other, but it's time for that relationship to move on.

Given that the Moclans have had to struggle to survive as a race, killing your partner to divorce them sounds like counter-productive move.
 
Perhaps the latter contributed to the former but the Moclans are too stubborn to admit it. What a shock that would be.
 
I disagree. I was surprised and a bit disappointed that things didn't fall apart as drastically as it seemed they were being set up to, but so far the show has earned enough trust from me that I can believe this is setup instead of a "whiffing-it" situation. The Union has bought themselves some time to try more diplomacy, which has a hopeful sense of avoiding the crisis, but that's just going to make it even worse when things do fall apart (and I think it's very likely it will). Also, possibly, they didn't want to leave things in a broken state for the end of the season without a renewal? This way there's the possibility that everything is resolved (eventually) if we never get any more Orville, instead of starting a war we'll have no resolution on.
Oh, I do like those aspects of the storyline, I'm just tired of the Moclans. I really don't have a problem with the Moclans themselves, I just wish they weren't getting so much attention. They have introduced this big Union, and we keep seeing all sorts of different aliens, but in two seasons the only ones who have gotten any real development are the Moclans. We have gotten to learn a bit about the Xelayans, but still not as much as we did about the Moclans. I just wish they would spread the love a bit, I would love to learn a bit more about the Gelatins, or even give Dann's species a name.
I know people complain about all the attention the Klingons got in the later Treks, but at least they also had episodes focused on the Vulcans, Ferengi, Bajorans, Dominion, Borg, ect.
 
Definitely overdid Moclans. Totally over Kylen and ready to focus elsewhere. Unless we get the ‘he was the light and changed’ episode, not interested in more of that status quo

Focus on other crew and aliens
 
Really enjoying that The Union is fraying and has some conflict to it. This isn't your Grampas go-along, get-along UFP.
Even the Federation wasn't originally meant to be an all happy and utopian go-along, get-along club in TOS. Remember in Journey to Babel, half the Federation worlds were ready to go to war with each other.
Lots of animus towards Klyden. He was born a female and then his parents had him surgically altered to be a male. He didn't find out about his gender change until much later. It had to be shocking for him. He didn't tell Bortus about his gender change before they had Topa because he was afraid Bortus would leave him. Maybe he is trying to strictly adhere to Moclan ideals because of his fear of being outed as less than Moclan. He seems to have a lot of fears. He seems rather pitiful to me.
Yep, that definitely sums Klyden up perfectly. I view him as a love to hate character. The character is a total tool, but his hard-lined conservative perspective does add to the drama of the show and provides plenty of story potential, so I'm cool with him remaining on the show.
 
If the show continues (and I hope it does), I could see a story where the male Moclans somehow get sterilized or some other planet wide problem happens and they end up needing the women to survive as a species.
 
If the show continues (and I hope it does), I could see a story where the male Moclans somehow get sterilized or some other planet wide problem happens and they end up needing the women to survive as a species.

Women have to be tied down like cows so that men can learn a piss easy moral lesson? If they learn anything, since they will be saved from their horrible personalities, before the consequences of their actions come home to roost. Pun intended.

Womenkind's only natural reply to assholes begging forgiveness for attempted genocide and enslavement is "Get out."

If the boys flush their world down the toilet, the women just have to wait a hundred years, while making babies, if they can make babies, M + M = baby but does M + F = baby or F + F = baby?, and then even the youngest boy Moclan's from "today" are as good as dead an buried.

Handmaid's Tale is still a nice version of how a serious fertility crisis would go down, and that's mostly because the %1 scrambling for babies still want to create the illusion that every thing is still fine, and the world has not gone to shit.
 
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Women have to be tied down like cows so that men can learn a piss easy moral lesson? If they learn anything, since they will be saved from their horrible personalities, before the consequences of their actions come home to roost. Pun intended.

Womenkind's only natural reply to assholes begging forgiveness for attempted genocide and enslavement is "Get out."

If the boys flush their world down the toilet, the women just have to wait a hundred years, while making babies, if they can make babies, M + M = baby but does M + F = baby or F + F = baby?, and then even the youngest boy Moclan's from "today" are as good as dead an buried.

Handmaid's Tale is still a nice version of how a serious fertility crisis would go down, and that's mostly because the %1 scrambling for babies still want to create the illusion that every thing is still fine, and the world has not gone to shit.

I have no idea if it's always the case, but Klyden was born a female, so it's possible every couple that has an egg is one male and one "born" female, except the natural born males lay the egg.

And if anything, what I was talking about could be used as a means to give the women as much power on Moclus as they want, if they want it.
 
Vulcan Romulan Reintegration is difficult in the Prime timeline because Romulus blew up and Vulcan Romulan Reintegration is difficult in the Kelvin timeline because Vulcan blew up.

I wouldn't trust the Boys from Mochlan to stick to any treaty with the women, and even if the government agrees that it is criminal to treat women as second class, there's still a hundred million fanatics out their willing to don suicide vests or spend the rest of their lives in jail to push the (surviving) ladies off world or into mass graves so that "decent" Mochlans can live decently.

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I wouldn't trust the Boys from Mochlan to stick to any treaty with the women
This! As soon as the compromise was reached I wondered how they would enforce it. Put a permanent guard onto the planet to watch over the women? Giving them a red telephone so they can call for help when they get invaded? But until someone arrives, it might be too late.
Or maybe Moclans are really honorable people.
 
Sorry, what I meant was If the girls were to move back "home" to Mochlan, where they were allowed to live unmolested by the government or men in general, the government and men in general would still (nonsexually) molest them.
 
They should do a story where all former Moclan females (e.g. Klyden) become female again.
 
They are safe on their colony world.

However... Are they safe off world in General, bounty hunters will be monitoring the situation, because they are definitely not safe on Mochlan from the ladycatchers.

How transparently notoriously public is their existence?

It's likely that very few Mochlan "back home" watch the cspan equivalence of the Union Council, and so they are unaware of the colony of deviants.

Of course now that the colony is "protected" they can lobby for equal rights, and they may not be able to steal babies any more, but scared parents on their own can try to make their way to the sanctuary through the blocade.
 
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I liked this one. Klyden is a massive douchebag, though.

IIRC the only way to officially divorce is murder in Mochlan society?
 
A knife to the chest (for a Mochlan) is completely survivable.

In a convivial uncoupling, EMT's would be standing by with band-aids.

Klyden is a little bitch for waiting for Bortus to tuck down for the night.

Klyden is the worst.
 
I was surprised they didn't do like that 1st Season TNG episode where the women were THE RULERS! (and my isn't that silly). Commander Riker did a decent argument that by exiling them, they had a place where the consevrative culture could have a safety valve for dissidents--at least for a time.
 
Previously the Moclans seemed like a Saudi Arabia analogy ... that's still there, but now there's a PRC/Taiwan element as well.
 
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