The One Thing You Could Change - Move Edition

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Bry_Sinclair, May 22, 2020.

  1. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

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    I don't think @Mark 2000 is concerned about where sequels would have gone, nor should he be when doing a what-if exercise. :)
     
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  2. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not saying he should be. I have no idea how he regards TWOK-TUC.

    No need for the smug :) emoticon either. My complimenting his work is sincere. I can disagree with someone about other subjects and still like what they do here.
     
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  3. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Kirk ordering Spock into the chamber is the cowards way out, he should've been the one to take that risk for the good of the crew, putting them ahead of his own well-being--a CO should never ask anything of their crew they themselves wouldn't be willing to do themselves.
     
  4. Angry Fanboy

    Angry Fanboy Commander Red Shirt

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    In theory yes. This sounds good, but in practice could for example Captain Picard remain behind in engineering to prevent a warp core breach? Or would he need Geordi to do that because he wouldn't have the technical expertise?

    Surely this is just part and parcel of the commanding officer role.
     
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  5. Mark 2000

    Mark 2000 Captain Captain

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    That’s not really how command works. Kirk probably doesn’t have the skills to even do such a thing. I think the whole scenario is stupid. Scotty should of done it without even being ordered. Or a dozen recruits. If you want a command level sacrifice, though, the best of all worlds would be to have Kirk start to rush down the engineering but Spock stops him and says he’ll go since Kirk is needed on the bridge. Then Spock makes the same, albeit, dumb choice. Anything would be better than Kirk sitting on his thumbs ready to die because no one wants to flip a switch.
     
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  6. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ordering someone to their death is never going to be an easy thing to do, we see Troi has a hard time making the call in "Thine Own Self" (despite knowing it is the only available option) though still manages to go through with it and earns her promotion. Since Kirk has never honestly faced the no win scenario he doesn't seem to see it as an option, so never thinks to order Scotty or one of the engineering cadets to do what needs to be done. His own inflexibility is what spurs Spock to take action, as this isn't a situation Kirk can't cheat his way out of.
     
  7. Angry Fanboy

    Angry Fanboy Commander Red Shirt

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    I'm not really looking to defend the specific situation in TWOK - my comment was more of a response to the 'commanding officer shouldn't ask someone to do something they wouldn't' assertion which struck me as fairly unrealistic/naive.

    I can't see how such a stance would be feasible since peoples' skills, specialities etc vary so much.

    The captain of an aircraft carrier is unlikely to be up to leading a SEAL team assault or flying an F35 into aerial combat - his role necessitates ordering others to risk their lives to do these things.
     
  8. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Noooo! This literally why Troi failed her command test. She wasn't qualified to save the ship and didn't have the balls to order someone who was to sacrifice themselves.

    The point was that no human would have remained functional long enough to fix the main energiser. If Kirk had done it, they would all have died. It had to be Spock.

    Compare to Into Darkness and it's terrible. Kirk isn't qualified to fix the engines. He orders everyone better qualified off the ship while it's plummeting towards a densely populated area. He gambles fixing the warp core over ejecting the core to make sure a breach doesn't destroy the US coastline. What happened to the needs of the many? He then kicks the ship better and it uses warp power to perform a hairpin turn at terminal velocity. That's before you take into account the magic blood teased in the earlier scene. Dreadful.

    Why not use thrusters to change the angle of descent to ditch in the ocean that is right next to the city? Were they actually using warp engines in an atmosphere? What does warping space-time do to an atmosphere? We're they using warp power to power Impulse engines? Why not fix emergency power to power Impulse engines? Was evacuating the ship and kicking warp engines really the best thing because it sounds dumb as hell.

    Spock's sacrifice was all the more powerful because he knew only he could do it (both Kirk and Saavik understand that immediately) and he would not put his friend in that position.

    Also, remember that one time at Band Camp, when Kirk sent Helen Noel, the woman he loved more than life itself, alone through dangerous ducts, to a generator that could kill her, before he'd even had the chance to bang her once? THAT is command.

    He did get to touch her bum when he hoisted her into the ducts but even so. HELEN NOEL.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  9. Mark 2000

    Mark 2000 Captain Captain

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    Kirk has faced death so many times in TOS I’m shocked that people buy what’s in TWOK without question. He ordered Spock to his blindness in Operarion: Annihilate and to his death in Immunity Syndrome. His ship survived because he beat the no-win scenario dozens of times over. He’s fully capable of ordering someone in to a chamber to save 300. TWOK just gets the guy wrong altogether from start to finish.
     
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  10. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The movies also forget that he has a family and lost a brother.
     
  11. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I can forgive those bits of Kirk because he was in a different point in his life. We are different people at different times in our lives.
     
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  12. Mark 2000

    Mark 2000 Captain Captain

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    Or practically cried over every redshirt, including one that was the son of a friend. Or the loss of the Farragut that drove him nuts in Obsession. Or seeing half the population of Tarsus IV murdered. The guy has faced a lot of death.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  13. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ...A smiley is considered smug? :wtf:
     
  14. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It depends. I don't want to get into it.
     
  15. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    As Kirk himself said, "Not like this." I don't think it's out of character for Kirk for Spock's death to hit him harder than any death had hit him before. Even his brother and Gary Mitchell.
     
  16. Mark 2000

    Mark 2000 Captain Captain

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    That’s grasping at a line while ignoring the rest of the film. Kirk is transformed into an irresponsible man child in TWOK who’s never had to deal with any real consequences. The rest of the line is “I've cheated death. I tricked my way out of death ...and patted myself on the back for my ingenuity.” When he’s got to pull a trigger at the end that we all know he’s pulled before he freezes. Kirk says point blank in Court Martial that he would kill any member of his crew to save the ship. And yet he can’t do it in TWOK and it’s presented as a character flaw.
     
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  17. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I could argue with you on this, but it'd essentially just be saying "My opinion is different!" and neither one of us would be changing our minds. Sorry it didn't work for you. It worked fine for me.
     
  18. Ryan Thomas Riddle

    Ryan Thomas Riddle Writer and occasional starship commander Premium Member

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    Also, Kirk allowed a woman he deeply loved get smeared across the asphalte to save his ship and the universe itself.
     
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  19. Mark 2000

    Mark 2000 Captain Captain

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    Yup, the list is so freaking long it’s easy to forget some of them.
     
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  20. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Tomorrow Never Knows Premium Member

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    TMP- A better script.
    TWOK- Better uniforms,
    TSFS- A better Saavik (Kirstie Alley)
    TVH- A better time travel acid trip
    TFF- A better story
    TUC- A smarter Chekov
    GEN- Better use of TOS cast
    FC- A better Cochrane (Tom Hanks)
    INS- A different story (It's a bad TNG episode)
    NEM- A different story
     
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