The One Thing You Could Change - Move Edition

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Bry_Sinclair, May 22, 2020.

  1. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The choice not to raise the shields, the choice to go to Regula I to investigate, the choice to take over the ship from Spock, the choice to beam over to Regula I himself, the choice to beam down to the planetoid at the last known coordinates, the choice to enter the Mutara Nebula... As with most episodes of Star Trek, Kirk has several options at his disposal, and several suggestions as to how to proceed, but as always, the final choice lies with Kirk. ("I'll keep that in mind, Mister Bailey, when this becomes a democracy.")

    Kirk is an active protagonist throughout TWOK. The plot would not proceed in the same way if he didn't make the choices that he does.
     
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  2. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    :techman:
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  3. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well......it never hurts.

    :rommie:
     
  4. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Okay, regarding that point on Kirk not being able to order someone to their death.

    I still feel it goes back to what I said earlier, about this being years after he was captain. The desk job at Starfleet made him soft, for lack of a better term. We saw Kirk at his prime in the series. We are past that in the movies.

    One thing to consider... as soon as the Genesis Wave appears on the scanners, Kirk was about to, on instinct, beam over and try to shut it off himself. David stopped him saying it can't. So Kirk orders the ship to reverse and get out as fast as possible. At this point, Scotty had already informed him about the mains being down, and then fell unconscious.

    Scotty was THE best engineer on the ship, and he couldn't get the engines on in time because he was out cold. All Kirk knew at the time was radiation, but no other specifics. You don't just send in a crewman hoping to fix something without more information. Command decisions are more than just throwing darts haphazardly hoping for a bullseye.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
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  5. Mark 2000

    Mark 2000 Captain Captain

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    I don’t think of Kirk in his prime as infallible. Kirk in TOS makes lots of mistakes, his first being entering the galactic barrier despite multiple warnings not too. But in the end he makes the right call because it’s his show and his ship.

    What is Kirk's narrative in TWOK? McCoy tells him he needs his command back but he doesn't want it. He only takes command under duress. He fails several times at it and ultimately has no winning solution at the end. And...? What's the thread here? Kirk is a bad leader? Kirk is a fraud who never made a real life and death decision? Spock is a better captain? It’s a really mixed message cloaked in a midlife crisis story. What does Spock’s death teach him? To be a better captain? To want to command? Those are his issues at the start of the film. Does he surmount them?

    Three minutes to live is the perfect time to start throwing everything, including bodies at the problem. These aren’t random crew. They’re trained officer candidates and engineers. But no one bothers to try. Scotty is poorly written to pass out and then wake up at just the right moment when Spock’s doing his job. Kirk doesn’t even know Scotty is passed out. He just keeps calling down to empty air. He doesn’t even send anyone to check what’s happening. Offering to beam over to the Reliant doesn’t make up for sitting like a doof yelling “Scotty” until he dies. Even McCoy is infected with insane helplessness, trying to stop Spock from going in the jiffy pop room so he doesn’t die in 2 minutes instead of 3.
     
  6. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    McCoy got neck pinched. Of course he was helpless to stop Spock.
     
  7. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    TMP – finish the original f/x

    TWOK – mention McGivers, though she probably wasn't for the same reason Tom Paris wasn't

    TSFS – as much as I loved it at the time as a kid, the "show edited highlights of the last film in this one" hasn't aged well. Who got the information, why is it Kirk and not Marcus (same reason McGivers isn't mentioned)

    TVH – add Eddie Murphy’s investigative reporter character.

    TFF – different effects company

    TUC – do the scenes of everyone being pulled out of retirement

    GEN – No TOS cast. They bowed on a great note.

    FC – have all DS9 crew on the Defiant and not let the ship, designed to fight Borg, be so quick to be pummeled (sigh)

    INS – everything except the dogfight scene

    NEM – nix the Reman subplot
     
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  8. grandmoffjon

    grandmoffjon Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Ok, one thing to change... that will be hard on some of the movies...

    TMP - It would've been great to see what the movie would look like without the reduced schedule. How it would properly be done had Bob Wise been given the time to preview the movie with an audience and had time do put in all the needed effects and sounds. I wonder what the reaction would've been and how much it would change Trek (if that doesn't work... well, more patterns on those outfits, I guess).

    TWOK - Sorry but the Red Maroons are a bit too stuffy for my taste...they age that crew. I have nothing better to suggest

    TSFS - Kirstey Alley or switch Saavik for Carol Marcus

    TVH - Maybe not beat you in the head with the ecological agenda? Not that I disagree with it but do it more elegantly. This covers a lot, from the whale probe that sets up the story to Dr Gillian personality but there's a lot of "doesn't matter it's ridiculous, we'll charm the pants of the audience".

    TFF - So many things but most of all, change it from being a movie about searching God at center of the galaxy with the predictable outcome to a movie about having unleashed the Devil and dealing with the consequences. So basically, not doing the journey the whole movie for the lame climax, and actually finding "God" midway and dealing with that crucible.

    TUC - Saavik instead of Valeris would be more resonant, though I don't know if Alley was interested at the time... if that wasn't possible, then rework the humor (TVH's legacy still creeping in)

    GEN - Forget meeting the two crews, TNG basically managed to make that impossible but if you want to have Kirk in there, don't bring along "some" crewmates who want the paycheck and remind everyone who's missing, and have him more in the movie as an audience surrogate who reacts to this new crew (the whole crew) that's being introduced in the big screen.

    FC - Tone down Picard a bit... no need to destroy the furniture!

    INS - How about changing the whole story? And if you have F. Murray Abraham at your disposal to ham it up, make a movie where that works better.

    NEM - Reunification follow-up

    --- as a bonus ---

    ST09 - Just explain what Nero has been up to for 30 years

    STID - Make Cumberbatch not Khan and his motivations sci-fi related and that movie is saved

    STB - Don't waste Idris Elba the whole movie and the movie gets alive
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
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  9. Lt.Smokey

    Lt.Smokey Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    You attributed credit, so I think you're good. lol. Fun exercise, but it's honestly been so long since I've watched any of the movies, I have no idea.
     
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  10. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    TMP.
    Less SFX, more time for short what has everyone been doing scenes.

    TWOK.
    Different design for uniforms.

    TSFS.
    Make Esteban a competent professional starfleet officer.
    Excelsior, lose the "smarmy" additude.
    Kristie Alley.

    TVH.
    Lose the no money in the future thing, there obvious is money in TOS.
    Make the whaling ship bigger than a tiny fishing boat, just use stock footage.
    No going to warp in the atmosphere, then two minutes later are leaving the atmosphere.

    TFF.
    Lose the malfunctioning Enterprise, it's a typical well built starfleet vessel.
    The take over of the Enterpise is too easy, show the crew fighting Sybok's people.
    After McCoy describes euthanasia his dad, Kirk and Spock talk of McCoy's dad still being alive.
    We see the officers struggling against Sybok's ongoing mind control.
    We learn more about the entity on Shakre (sp?).

    TUC.
    Make the conspirators competent professional starfleet officers.
    They have good, real and understandable reasons for what they're doing.
    They're not the bad guys, there just two sides of being right. Make the story complex.
    Both Saavik and Valeris are aboard the Enterprise. Saavik does the "mind rape" of Valeris.
    There are multiple special BOPs.
    There's a big battle above Kitomer, starships keep arriving for the battle.
    They are all commanded by officers who formerly served under Kirk.

    GEN.
    Make Harriman a competent professional starfleet officer.
    Lose Chekov.
    Kirk doesn't fix the technological wonder that is the deflector by kicking it. (oops, wrong movie)
    Keep LaForge's torture scene.
    Keep the original Kirk being shot in the back scene, lose the bridge.

    FC.
    Picard is ordered into the battle, he does not go rogue to get there.
    Rewrite Cochrane, he's driven and obsessed, not a drucken clown.

    INS.
    Make Dougherty a competent professional starfleet officer.
    When Ru'afo says he's sending three ships against the Enterprise, Dougerty laughs at him.
    Not everyone on the Enterprise agrees with Picard's position.
    Beverly thinks collecting the particles is a good idea, even if the Ba'Ku have to be moved..
    Worf oppose violating orders, he's a black and white kind of guy.
    Lose Picard the action hero.

    NEM.

    Lose the dune buggy.
    Make B4 less "goofy."
    Different actor for Shizon.

    ST 2009.
    Lose Kirk being a jerk in any way.
    Give Delta Vega a consistent clear sky, so Spock would have been able to see Vulcan in the sky.
    Come up with a credible reason that Kirk is made first officer over existing commissioned officers.
    Come up with a credible reason that Kirk is made captain at the end of the movie.

    ID.
    Make Marcus a competent professional starfleet officer.
    He has a good, real and understandable reasons for what his doing.
    Lose section 31.
    Lose Uhura being a bitchy high maintenace girlfriend.
    Lose Carol stripping to her underwear.
    Kirk doesn't fix the technological wonder that is the reactor by kicking it.

    BEYOND.
    Make it clearer that Sulu has met a male lover and not just a close friend.
    Make it clearer that Uhura is identifying Edison by the sound of his voice.
    Explain why the Enterprise can't simply go back to warp when massively attacked.
    Lose the motorcycle and The Beastie Boys.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  11. dupersuper

    dupersuper Commander Red Shirt

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    Yaaay, my first post!

    Motion Picture: the special effects are beautiful and all, but maybe a little less lingering on them...?

    Wrath of Khan: I'll agree with an earlier post that said Spock could've been less obvious about his "code"

    Search for Spock: production values that made it feel more like a film and less like an episode

    Voyage Home: include the deleted scenes I've just read about in other threads on this board

    Final Frontier: better special effects (and correct deck numbering)

    Undiscovered Country: make the veridian patch way less obvious

    Generations: the Return of Kirk novels have already corrected my biggest issue with this movie, so...somehow show that several minutes pass between Soren launching the rocket and the sun exploding (science!)

    First Contact: have Cochran mention fig trees just once

    Insurrection: ...just...hire a completely different writing staff from the get-go?

    Nemesis: see Insurrection

    2009: have one person on staff who knew what a supernova is...?

    Into Darkness: see Nemesis

    Beyond: more villain characterization: Idris Elba was pretty much wasted
     
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  12. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    TMP: Have Decker be captain for longer, in the dialogue, before Kirk takes back command. I thought it would've been interesting if he had been captain of the Enterprise for several years and the crew was a mix of officers who had came up under him but also veterans from Kirk's time. I think that could've led to some nice interpersonal conflict.

    TWOK: Keep the part about Scotty's nephew in the theatrical cut.

    TSFS: Not much I can think of to change with this one. Perhaps more action.

    TVH: Give Madge Sinclair's captain a name in the film.

    TFF: I don't hate this film like many others do, but that doesn't mean it didn't need work. So, the one change I will pick is that instead of having yet another Klingon antagonist, have a Romulan one.

    TUC: Taking Nanclus out of the meeting with the Federation President, Sarek, and Colonel West. Always felt strange to me that he would be there.

    GEN: Kirk would die on the bridge of the Enterprise. Cheating here, but I could also be okay with them making his death more ambiguous. Breaking rules here, but having DaiMon Bok as the secondary antagonist instead of the Duras sisters. I wish they had kept them alive for DS9. I think they could've caused a lot of trouble during the Cardassian-Klingon War, Federation-Klingon War, and then the Dominion War.

    FC: Can't really think of one. Though I've long thought that First Contact works just as well, and perhaps even better, as a Sisko story than a Picard story. Just thought of one, keep Hawk alive.

    INS: Tying this story to the Dominion War. It would've been neat seeing the Jem' Hadar on the silver screen.

    NEM: There's so many changes I want to do with this one. But I'll go with changing Shinzon's goal from wanting to destroy Earth to going after Romulus.

    ST2009: Not much I would change with this one. But I would've liked if we had gotten Kelvin versions of "The Cage" crew. They all could've just gone over to the Narada with Pike, but only he survives.

    INTO DARKNESS: No Khan. John Harrison worked fine as a villain.

    BEYOND: I think Robert April should've been Krall. I think that would've been more special for a film coming out during the 50th anniversary year if Kirk had to face off against the first captain of the NCC-1701. And that would've finally made him canon in live-action.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
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  13. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Would Wesley use his Traveler powers to do a TLJ General Leia?
     
  14. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    Super Wesley, flying through space? :D
     
  15. BajaTym

    BajaTym Ensign Newbie

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    Well, this was actually a little tougher than I thought it’d be, for now only the TOS movies...

    TMP: like others have said, Kirk remain an Admiral and Decker a Captain.

    TWOK: have Saavik’s Romulan heritage brought into cannon.

    TSFS: have Kirk’s positive attitude seen at the end of TWOK carry over into the beginning of this film (always seemed a little odd that he shifted away from “I feel young” to “the death of Spoke is like an open wound”).

    TVH: a new ship for the Enterprise-A. Maybe a design similar to the Excelsior, but not that exact design/class. A true “Enterprise-class” starship.

    TVH: I know just one, but I actually like Commander Starfleet from TSFS. If I couldn’t get a new Enterprise I’d take Fleet Admiral Marrow and dismiss Admiral Cartwright.

    TFF: This movie would never have been made.

    TUC: Saavik would have returned (Kristie Alley) as part of the crew.
     
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  16. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Even though some changes would have bigger impacts ...

    The Motion Picture-Not make McCoy instantly-suspicious of Spock's loyalties or just reduce the length of the entering the cloud sequence.

    The Wrath of Khan
    -Not a big deal but probably have some better, more convincing explanation for why there were survivors, but Kirk could find them, than just they managed to beam away and Kirk followed them. Or yes make the code, or the announcing of it, less obvious.

    The Search for Spock-Keep Alley as Saavik and her portrayal more like in II. Or make the battle with the Klingons a little longer, the Enterprise not so instantly-crippled.

    The Voyage Home-Just one thing would be minor but some better depiction of time travel effect or cut the line "Everybody remember where we parked."

    The Final Frontier-Either cut the line "Hold your horse, captain" or make "God" in the end more of a threat to Kirk (or maybe make the threat to Kirk at the end something else).

    The Undiscovered Country-Reduce Chang's Shakespeare-quoting/hamminess.

    Generations-Make the crew seem more urgently concerned that LaForge was kidnapped or have Picard and Kirk be more reluctant to, a struggle to, decide to leave the fantasy.

    First Contact-Probably have a scene of Riker again convincing Cochrane, after he panics, to go through with the mission, or maybe cut down on the Cochrane drinking/old rock n roll humor.

    Insurrection-show Riker convincingly persuading the Federation Council to give up or at least delay the plan, though runner-ups would be including the reason for Worf temporarily rejoining the crew or no Picard/Anij romance.

    Nemesis-While a whole different story would be best, for just one change, no B4. A young evil Picard twin at least had potential, having another evil twin (especially for Data who's already had one that is here ignored) was a whole worse level, B4 felt so extraneous and annoyingly forced in and pointless (and Data's story could have actually worked better without him, just being impacted by seeing and thinking about Shinzon and maybe remembering Lore). Bonus if it kind of cheats in that if no B4 probably no dune buggy scene also :).

    09-I would have preferred that Amanda didn't die but the biggest would be not have Spock in the end favor revenge.

    Into Darkness-Make Marcus less of a maniac-mustache-twirler, probably less of the main villain at all even if he did betray and anger Khan. Or avoid Kirk dying and being brought back to life.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  17. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

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    She was mentioned in some dialog in the script which didn't make the final cut.
    The schedule wasn't reduced. They block booked a delivery date near the end of principal photography and got into trouble when they subsequently fired the effects team. That's where they got into trouble.
     
  18. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Would she be the traitor, or would you have Saavik and Valeris?
     
  19. BajaTym

    BajaTym Ensign Newbie

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    No, I like the WOK Saavik too much for her to become a villain. I’d imagine her as part of the crew and even closer to Spock, maybe even a few callbacks to TSFS or actually mentioning her Romulan heritage. I like to see characters evolve and grow to become better people, I really enjoyed STII because it showed how everyone had moved on with their careers/lives and not stagnated (for the most part). I’ve never liked how Starfleet seems to keep people in their initial jobs for 20+ years...I mean really, poor Uhura! That poor woman was a basic comm officer for her entire career!! That’s horrible. Anyway, maybe even have Saavik speak of her and Spock having a child following their coupling in TSFS, I think that was mentioned somewhere (I one of the books/earlier scripts). Maybe even have a reference about the child being raised on Vulcan by either Spock’s family or Saavik’s...?
     
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  20. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think making Saavik the traitor could have worked if her motivations had been more nuanced than Valeris (revenge for David's death, drawing the Romulans into the conflict (she was born at an experimental prison colony), liberation of subjugated worlds etc). The Klingon economy (and the Picard era Romulan economy for that matter) seems overly simplified considering they are an empire. Saavik could have added wider context.

    I think having the traitor unmasked by murdering the compromised co-conspirators was very weak storytelling to begin with, and would certainly not have worked for Saavik. Some logical deduction from Spock would have been better.

    Her part in the conspiracy could have been limited to covering up, making her an accessory after the fact rather than a cold blooded killer.

    Finally, Saavik could have been confident that Kirk and McCoy would be rescued because she knows Spock would never give up and she could have been persuaded by Kirk to spill the beans by invoking David's memory to do away with the dreadful mind rape scene.

    Overall, Saavik would have been better but not with the plot as is in the movie IMO.
     
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