The lack of national diversity in the Discovery cast...

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by eschaton, Nov 9, 2017.

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  1. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, but that's just stupid kids being bullies.

    (Although you wonder, shouldn't Vulcan children be above such things? Bullying is many things, but definitely not logical.)

    From what we see of Amanda on Vulcan in "Lethe", the other Vulcans present didn't seem to have a problem with her.
     
  2. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Vulcans are not born logical. Its a belief system, its not genetic.
     
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  3. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    Another poster and I recently sort of hypothesized that Vulcan neural pathways naturally suppress tendencies toward emotional empathy. On the one hand, this could make them more easily adapt to an ideology of pure logic. On the other hand, without such an ideology, they would be all the more cruel and ruthless during their historical eras of war and conquest.

    Kor
     
  4. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But how many of them apart from those who undertook kolinarhu (sp) lived a life of pure logic? By what is shown in the franchise, not many.
     
  5. Refuge

    Refuge Rear Admiral Commodore

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    I understand it to be both. The Vulcan pathways are distinct to be being Vulcan and there are also disciplines involved, like meditation exercises to maintain the suppression. Tuvok being an example not of a human brought up Vulcan or even a half Vulcan like Spock, provided a basic example when he melded with Suder, a Betazoid no less. "As a Vulcan I have internal processes that allow me to control violent instincts". Interestingly after the meld Suder was more able to control his violent instincts but it was also said the meld had initiated some high cortical activity in his brain. So there has to be a need for a physical or chemical change. I don't think suppression training alone cuts it. In fact when Tuvok was examined there was a neurochemical imbalance in his cortex where apparently the Vulcan psycho suppression system is located. That kind of indicates it is an actual part of the Vulcan anatomy.
     
  6. Vger23

    Vger23 Commodore Commodore

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    This whole thread is a little perplexing.

    You have:
    Burnham (African descent)
    Culber (Hispanic descent)
    Tyler (Pakastani descent)
    Detmer (German descent)
    Owosekun (African descent)
    Georgeou (Asian descent)

    I'm not sure what the deal is, but the measure of how much "international diversity" there is on the show seems to be based on using accents as a metric. Frigging ridiculous. This is one of the most diverse groups Star Trek has featured thus far.

    Maybe when children learn English in the 23rd Century, they learn it with various accents and dialects (explains Picard speaking English with a British accent).

    The only character who is confirmed as having any connection with the United States is Tyler. And, for all we know, Stamets grew up on Lake Armstrong and Lorca was born on Flugenfuck V.

    With thousands of planets and colonies, national origin means nothing by the age of the 23rd century...unless it's being played for stereotypical gags like with Picard and Chekov.

    "Why is there nobody from NORWAY on the show?????? That's INSANITY!!!! And what about Kyrgyzstan???? How can you show a unified humanity without including the brilliant people of Kyrgyzstan?!?! ANGRY!!!!"

    Give me a break, guys. Go back to complaining about uniforms or cloaking devices or something. :razz:
     
  7. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The actor playing Culber is of African descent just like Burnham, the only difference is the colonial origins of their place of birth. (England/Spain).
    'Hispanic' is not a racial group. You would not describe Burnham as of Anglo descent would you?
     
  8. Vger23

    Vger23 Commodore Commodore

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    I didn't say it was a racial group. I said "descent." Also, plenty of people self-identity as "of Hispanic origin."

    I was a Diversity and Inclusion manager for 18 months at a Fortune 500 Company as part of a Human Resources developmental rotation. I think I understand the concepts quite well, but thank you for your (I'm quite sure) well-intended attempt to educate me.
     
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  9. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Walrus Premium Member

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    Well, the thread title refers to "National Diversity" in "the cast". Which is kind of a jumble. The cast is international having actors from Europe, Asia and North America The actors are also from various ethnic backgrounds. The characters OTOH, tend to skew North American. Lorca, Burnham, Stamets ,Tyler and Tilly seem to be North American and they are all main characters. Detmer is said to be German, but nothing on the show has established that. We know nothing about Owosekun, she could be from Africa like the actress who plays her. Culber appears to be North American was well. I'd rather he be from Alpha Centauri or another colony world. Break up the North America/Earth domination.
     
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  10. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It is and it isn't. Technically "semitic" isn't a racial group either (like Hispanic, it's a language/cultural group) but anti-semitism is still totally a thing. There's also a lot of African ethnic groups that are distinguished primarily by their language/cultural origins (the Hutus and the Tutsis are the most famous of these, and apparently Bantu and Ibo can tell each other apart in a bar).

    That depends. Is one of her parents an englishman?
     
  11. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Whats the difference between a slave ship depositing the ancestors of the black actor who plays Culber from Puerto Rico, owned by Imperial Spain and then depositing the ancestors of the actor who plays Burnham in Colonial USA owned by Imperial England? None.
     
  12. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    To be pedantic, that would depend on where the crew actually got their slaves. Bantus and Zulus aren't the same thing either, but Zulu slaves fetched a MUCH better price on the trans-atlantic market because they were considered to be a "higher born" breed from the lineage of Ham. While other African groups are divided mostly by culture and language, the Zulus are an ENTIRELY different ethnic group whose ancestry diverged in pre-history. So unless Burnham's ancesotrs had sex with Culber's ancestors on that slave ship, it's ENTIRELY possible they are not even distantly related.

    tl;dr: Africa is a BIG fucking continent, and there are ALOT of different black ethnicities.

    To the more specific point: Burnham would be considered "anglo" if one of her parents is LITERALLY a member of what you might consider an "anglo" ethnic group. Namely, an Englishman. Culber would not, in the case that one of his parents or grandparents was a spaniard and/or a native of a spanish-speaking country, in which case he would be considered -- among other things -- hispanic, and not anglo. Now combine those two points and realize that they could easily have two completely different African ethnicities, mixed over generations with two or more completely different european ethnicities, and you wind up with two people whose ethnic origin is as closely related as Miles and Keiko.

    The two of them having ancestors that were sold from the same slave ship doesn't make them part of the same ethnic group, anymore than the two of them currently serving on the same starship would make their descendants relatives. Unless the Discovery is a TARDIS, of course, in which case Burnham's kids would probably wind up being born with timelord powers...
     
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  13. Albinator

    Albinator Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In terms of national diversity in Trek, you seem to be annoyed by Discovery's lack of accents, but seem happy to gloss over characters on other Trek shows that lack their native accents (LaForge, Sato, Torres, etc).

    I guarantee you that Isaacs would have kept his native accent had it not been for Picard; it would have drawn too many comparisons and frankly, Isaacs already enough like Patrick Stewart.

    In the end, DSC has a Puerto-Rican, and African American, a middle easterner, a gay man, and an Asian woman lead in the first two episodes, and-- as you describe her-- a neural atypical.

    I think it's important to not look at DSC in a vacuum, and look at it as part of a larger franchise. It's the first Trek show to have a black female lead and a gay lead, those are long-overdue, but notable. nonetheless.
     
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  14. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    I would use the term "neuro-diverse." And while that kind of inclusion would be great, Mary Wiseman has that the character of Tilly was not specifically intended to be on the spectrum.

    Kor
     
  15. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So is Europe and despite the cause of two World wars and other conflicts the indigenous folks of England and the indigenous folks of Spain are still Caucasian.
     
  16. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think most of what little evidence there is, leans toward it being strictly a matter of emotional control that must be practiced.

    - On ENT, T'Pol once said that paranoia and homicidal rage were common on Vulcan before the time of Surak.

    - Remember what Spock turned into when he started reverting to "ancient Vulcan"...he was openly violent and enraged.

    - And when Sarek developed Bendii Syndrome and started losing his control, he became quite emotional as well. He just forgot how to control himself.

    And on TNG, Marina Sirtis would have kept HER native accent - for the exact same reason.
     
  17. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Walrus Premium Member

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    The Cockney one?
     
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  18. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So what? Spaniards and Anglos aren't the same thing either, hence Burnham having an English parent wouldn't make her a spaniard and Tyler having a Hispanic parent wouldn't make him Anglo. Those are actually completely different ethnic groups with very different origins. It's kind of like how Russian and Polish people do not consider themselves part of the same ethnicity and some get offended when you mix them up (or, hell, Japanese, Chinese and Korean). Just because they look similar doesn't mean they're the same thing.

    Again, I'm not sure I understand your point here. Are you implying that Burnham and Culber LOOK like they could be the same ethnicity, and that this is a problem for some reason? Or are you implying that their possible ethnic origins is not established as being something other than "American"? Given that you can't actually tell a person's ethnic background just by looking at them -- and given that, after a hundred years, you probably can't tell by their last names either -- I'm not sure where you're going with this.
     
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  19. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ethnicity is not the same thing as race. The actors are of the same racial group. There are very few, if any racial differences between a Black American and a Black Puerto Rican. Regional differences are a product of artificial man made boundaries.
     
  20. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Walrus Premium Member

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    Alfred Molina...English, Spanish or Italian?

    Well technically, Puerto Ricans are Americans. :p
     
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