Spoilers The Flash - Season 3

[Romulan_spy]

I like the idea of telling Barry that Iris was going to Earth-X but then secretly taking her to a different Earth. By giving Barry false information that he does not know is false, it would use Savatar's knowledge of Barry's memories against him. Savatar would go to Earth-X and have to search the entire planet to find her when she is not there. He would waste a lot of time trying to find her and have no way of knowing which Earth she is on. Without any way to find Iris, Savatar would be unable to kill her, so it would save her life and it would buy Barry time to stop Savatar. Moreover, it if were impossible for Savatar to kill Iris, then Savatar would actually cease to exist since he needs her murder in order to be created.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I like the idea of telling Barry that Iris was going to Earth-X but then secretly taking her to a different Earth. By giving Barry false information that he does not know is false, it would use Savatar's knowledge of Barry's memories against him. Savatar would go to Earth-X and have to search the entire planet to find her when she is not there. He would waste a lot of time trying to find her and have no way of knowing which Earth she is on. Without any way to find Iris, Savatar would be unable to kill her, so it would save her life and it would buy Barry time to stop Savatar. Moreover, it if were impossible for Savatar to kill Iris, then Savatar would actually cease to exist since he needs her murder in order to be created.

Hmm. But the only way for it to be impossible for him to kill her is if its impossible for him to find her ever again (even decades later). So that would mean she'd have to go away and stay away forever.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Hmm. But the only way for it to be impossible for him to kill her is if its impossible for him to find her ever again (even decades later). So that would mean she'd have to go away and stay away forever.

No, she would only have to stay away until Barry gets rid of Savatar for good. Once Savatar is gone, the threat to her would be gone so it would be safe for her to come back.

 

[Tuskin38]

HR was staring at Savitar's blade they had in the lab.

 

[Romulan_spy]

HR was staring at Savitar's blade they had in the lab.

I noticed that too. I have no idea what it means though.

 

[dahj]

It's not a "power" any more than my having ten fingers is a power.

Speaking of fingers, the regenerating hand power should have been dampened surely?

2) It was not Iris that Savatar killed. (most likely. I really like the theory that HR used the holographic masking tech to swap placed with Iris so it was HR that died and not her.

Yeah, this seems the most plausible theory, HR did not look like he was intending to just "hold down the fort."

You mean when Savitar let her fall to the ground? I'm not sure there would've been time or an opportunity to do that without Savitar noticing.

The camera deliberately went off Iris and everyone's attention was focused away from her by the ghostbusters bazooka flashing, that can't be a coincidence. It may have not been enough time for HR to do something by himself, but plenty of time for a speedster(Wally recovered?) to make a switcheroo, or someone with vibe portals(HR called Gypsy?).

 

[Romulan_spy]

There is also the slim possibility that it was actually Earth-2 Iris that died and not "our" Iris. They did go to Earth-2 after all. Maybe Iris-2 offered to take her place to save her. It would be weird but I guess it is possible.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

No, she would only have to stay away until Barry gets rid of Savatar for good. Once Savatar is gone, the threat to her would be gone so it would be safe for her to come back.

If Barry could actively get rid of him, then yes. Theoretically, at least, although time-wimey stuff so far on this show has always denied rational explanation, so Savatar could still show up somehow.

But either way, Savatar could not be disappeared from history just by letting Iris hide from him unless she stayed away forever. Because he could only be effected if she was impossible to find, and if she ever came back she would by definition be quite easy to find.

Unless there's a time limit in play - that he has to kill her at this specific time and place for it to work. Then it would be possible, but there's been no indication of that whatsoever.

 

[Christopher]

The camera deliberately went off Iris and everyone's attention was focused away from her by the ghostbusters bazooka flashing, that can't be a coincidence. It may have not been enough time for HR to do something by himself, but plenty of time for a speedster(Wally recovered?) to make a switcheroo, or someone with vibe portals(HR called Gypsy?).

There is also the slim possibility that it was actually Earth-2 Iris that died and not "our" Iris. They did go to Earth-2 after all. Maybe Iris-2 offered to take her place to save her. It would be weird but I guess it is possible.

With both these theories, I just don't believe anyone else would've been okay with letting them make that sacrifice. If either HR or Iris-2 had been able to act alone without anyone else being involved, then I could buy it, but if they needed the cooperation of anyone else on the team (except Harry, who's ruthless enough), then there's no way it would've happened. I doubt even Gypsy would be willing to kill an innocent to save another innocent. (Plus, vibe portals make a lot of light and noise, so they can't be hidden.)

 

[dahj]

With both these theories, I just don't believe anyone else would've been okay with letting them make that sacrifice.

At this point, it's not necessarily a sacrifice, because they expect the bazooka to work.
What if HR... lied? Went to (let's say) Wally with that piece of armor and said "Oh no, I need to get this close to Savitar or the bazooka won't work because fake science, you need to switch me with Iris, it's the only way!"

'tis a bit far fetched, I know.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Unless there's a time limit in play - that he has to kill her at this specific time and place for it to work. Then it would be possible, but there's been no indication of that whatsoever.

There kinda is a time limit, I think. Remember that Savatar was created on a specific date when Future Barry creates his Time Remnants. That in turn required a certain amount of time to pass from when Iris died in order for Future Barry to become desperate and broken enough to do it. So if Iris dies say a year later or 2 years later, it would change the whole timeline which could change a lot. Think of it this way: why didn't Savatar just kill Iris sooner? He certainly could have just raced into Star Labs and killed her any time he wanted. So, why does Savatar wait for that specific time and date on that particular street to kill her? The answer is that he had to maintain the exact timeline that he remembers. He had to do exactly what he remembered already doing in order to preserve his timeline. If he kills Iris sooner or if she dies later, it would change his timeline.

 

[Christopher]

At this point, it's not necessarily a sacrifice, because they expect the bazooka to work.

No one with any sense would just "expect" their plan to succeed, especially if its failure means an innocent person will die. Heck, Snart literally said that step three of the plan should be to expect the plan to fail.

I understand the desire to think up clever ways that Iris's life could be saved, but it's important to keep in mind that her life is not the only one that matters. Iris would never agree to let someone else risk dying to save her, and nobody on the team would be willing to risk sacrificing anyone except themselves to save her.

 

[dahj]

The answer is that he had to maintain the exact timeline that he remembers. He had to do exactly what he remembered already doing in order to preserve his timeline.

But the timeline already changed a whole bunch of times...

No one with any sense would just "expect" their plan to succeed

Not if they took planning lessons from Snart anyway.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

There kinda is a time limit, I think. Remember that Savatar was created on a specific date when Future Barry creates his Time Remnants. That in turn required a certain amount of time to pass from when Iris died in order for Future Barry to become desperate and broken enough to do it. So if Iris dies say a year later or 2 years later, it would change the whole timeline which could change a lot. Think of it this way: why didn't Savatar just kill Iris sooner? He certainly could have just raced into Star Labs and killed her any time he wanted. So, why does Savatar wait for that specific time and date on that particular street to kill her? The answer is that he had to maintain the exact timeline that he remembers. He had to do exactly what he remembered already doing in order to preserve his timeline. If he kills Iris sooner or if she dies later, it would change his timeline.

He hasn't maintained the exact timeline, though. There have been lots of changes made, and he just keeps remembering the new timeline after the changes. (Which is a whole other screwy situation)

 

[Christopher]

But the timeline already changed a whole bunch of times...

In small ways, yes, but not enough to make a critical difference in his origin, or he would've been erased already.

 

[Scout101]

I like the theory that it was HR and not Iris that died (the holographic tech, feeling useless, responsible for blowing it, etc), but how does that work? HR was on our Earth and blew the secret of where Iris was hidden. Savitar pretty much goes straight there and gets her. Not really any time for him to swap places, and Cisco would have had to have been in on it (if Flash did it, Savitar would know). Only way this works is if Iris is in on it too, using the same tech to pretend to be HR. But that makes her pretty complicit in basically murdering friend to save herself, which isn't a great storyline...

Different question: can Barry create a time remnant of Iris, and let Savitar kill that instead? Same problem with Savitar knowing, I guess. Kid Flash is out of commission, so can't do it for him, unless they did it beforehand.

 

[Romulan_spy]

There is also the matter of what the 2nd thing is that Savatar is planning to do in order to complete his ascension. He mentioned 2 things to Barry, killing Iris and a second thing that he is keeping a secret. I suspect we will find out what the second thing is in the finale. I also suspect the 2nd thing might be something that if Barry stops, it will destroy Savatar and bring Iris back.

I think the 2nd thing might have something to do with the portal we see Savatar zooming around in a circle in the trailer with Killer Frost watching from a distance. Maybe Savatar is planning on doing something to the Speed Force Realm so that he alone controls it. That would definitely be something that would make Savatar think that he has become a god.

 

[dahj]

In small ways, yes, but not enough to make a critical difference in his origin, or he would've been erased already.

It actually changed in some pretty big ways.

In the "original timeline" Savitar kills Iris, Barry retreats from everybody, creates time remnants to battle Savitar, one of them becomes Savitar, Barry is completely oblivious of his identity and eventually traps him in the Speed Force.

But now Barry knows who Savitar is, knows not to retreat from everybody, knows not to create time remnants to battle him... so why does he still exist?

 

[Romulan_spy]

But now Barry knows who Savitar is, knows not to retreat from everybody, knows not to create time remnants to battle him... so why does he still exist?

That would seem like a huge plot hole. I guess we have to assume that the loss of Iris is so tragic that it will push Barry to create time remnants anyway out of sheer desperation and hopelessness. Tragedy often prevents people from thinking rationally. Heck, Barry knew intellectually that creating flashpoint would be a mistake but he did it anyway because he was so emotional over the loss of his father. I think the same applies for losing Iris.

 

[Gryffindorian]

Hmm. But the only way for it to be impossible for him to kill her is if its impossible for him to find her ever again (even decades later). So that would mean she'd have to go away and stay away forever.

Or ... she could stay aboard the Waverider and time-travel with the Legends while Barry defeats Savitar.